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> all he must do to ensure it doesn't hurt anyone is not shoot anyone with it That assumes his gun will never be stolen, or that an accidental shooting is out

by jawns 9y ago

> all he must do to ensure it doesn't hurt anyone is not shoot anyone with it That assumes his gun will never be stolen, or that an accidental shooting is out of the question. Some stats: "According to data from the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), during the four-year period from 2012 to 2015, nearly half a billion dollars worth of guns were stolen from individuals nationwide, amounting to an estimated 1.2 million guns." https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/reports/2017/07/25/436533/stolen-guns-america/ https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/reports/2... "From 2006-2016, almost 6,885 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings. In 2016 alone, there were 495 incidents of accidental firearm deaths." https://www.aftermath.com/content/accidental-shooting-deaths-statistics https://www.aftermath.com/content/accidental-shooting-deaths... And those stats only consider deaths. Think about survivable injuries on top of that. Also, keep in mind that even people who receive some sort of basic firearm safety training typically don't receive training related to how to respond to violent confrontations. The NRA, for instance, offers several Personal Protection courses, but typically you've got to take home firearm safety and shooting courses before you can take a Personal Protection course. The problem is that some people take a firearm safety training course and then think they're fully qualified to act in a violent confrontation. And, unfortunately, that misplaced confidence can put themselves and others in harm's way.

madengr 9y ago
"In 2016 alone, there were 495 incidents of accidental firearm deaths." In 2015 there were 1250000 incidents of violent crime. No need for further math. I'll keep my guns.
- verbify 9y ago
  You're more likely to die via guns if you yourself own a gun. This factoid is suggestive, but there are many complex factors at play (e.g. you're more likely to own a gun if you live in a shitty neighbourhood, suicide, and you're more likely to be involved in a shootout if you try to defend yourself). However it's flippant to say that there's no need for further math.
- pmyteh 9y ago
  Peh. I've been a victim of violent crime five times. I was punched in the chest on my way to school age 11. I was chased by a gang of kids and punched several times in the back aged 16. I was pelted by eggs while crossing a park twice aged 22 and 23, and was fairly badly mugged aged 25. Not one of those would have worked out better had I been armed. The first time I was surprised, and the best that would have happened would have been that some guy got shot in the back walking away. Satisfying, but unhelpful. The second might have been stopped if I'd brandished, but then again I might have dropped the gun getting it out and been shot, or overpowered before I fired. I was shit scared and vastly outnumbered. The third and fourth I was both surprised and outnumbered. And anyway, who the fuck pulls a gun in retaliation for an egging? The final and most serious time, I was attacked without warning from the back, and was knocked down to the floor trying to protect my head against my assailants' kicks long before I could have thought to draw a firearm. Shittons of violent crime is like this: it mostly neither justifies nor provides opportunity for gun use. Of course, I live in England, so at no point did I have to fear being shot. But I don't think that's in favour of owning firearms just-in-case either, frankly.
sparky_z 9y ago
For the point of view of the people this article is writing about, that's probably not a very convincing argument. While the statistics you cite are true, they don't take individual circumstances into account. How many of those accidents and thefts were caused by those gun owners being negligent fools? Probably a fair number of them. How much can proper storage, handling, and training mitigate those risks? Probably a lot. Rather than just just comparing the upside to the downside statistically, you have to compare the upside to the downside for yourself as an individual, including the steps you can take to maximize the former and minimize the latter.
- mieseratte 9y ago
  Lumping all gun owners into a statistic is pretty damn useless when you consider "gun owner" ranges from "DEVGRU" to "thinks holding a handgun sideways reduces recoil."
bitexploder 9y ago
It is hard to explain, or at least convince people of a fundamental aspect of firearms for personal protection. 1.) Mammals, humans included, are finnicky creatures with a fight/fight system at the deepest layer (physically) in our body and brain. 2.) Most people have not tested their fight/flight in a combat situation. From these two basic facts you can pretty much figure out most people who have plonked a few rounds at the range and acquired a concealed carry permit are as much a danger to themselves as to any attacker. To overcome this it requires hundreds of hours of drills and training to make the response safe to everyone but an attacker and within the framework of law in your area. It also requires ongoing training, probably every 1-3 months. If you aren't willing to do this, I don't think you should morally be packing concealed weapons in the name of self defense. This is mostly about handguns. Amusingly rifles are more practical in most prepper situations. Think home defense against other armed attackers where it isn't sudden and instant and close quarters. AR-15 is overkill, probably, but a reasonable option from a fortified position when you are dealing with multiple attackers. Unfortunately, they are also great at mowing down civilians in the hands of the mentally unbalanced. Anyway, just some musings of mine having grown up in the South and been around firearms most of my life.

by jawns 9y ago

madengr 9y ago

"In 2016 alone, there were 495 incidents of accidental firearm deaths." In 2015 there were 1250000 incidents of violent crime. No need for further math. I'll keep my guns.

verbify 9y ago
You're more likely to die via guns if you yourself own a gun. This factoid is suggestive, but there are many complex factors at play (e.g. you're more likely to own a gun if you live in a shitty neighbourhood, suicide, and you're more likely to be involved in a shootout if you try to defend yourself). However it's flippant to say that there's no need for further math.
pmyteh 9y ago
Peh. I've been a victim of violent crime five times. I was punched in the chest on my way to school age 11. I was chased by a gang of kids and punched several times in the back aged 16. I was pelted by eggs while crossing a park twice aged 22 and 23, and was fairly badly mugged aged 25. Not one of those would have worked out better had I been armed. The first time I was surprised, and the best that would have happened would have been that some guy got shot in the back walking away. Satisfying, but unhelpful. The second might have been stopped if I'd brandished, but then again I might have dropped the gun getting it out and been shot, or overpowered before I fired. I was shit scared and vastly outnumbered. The third and fourth I was both surprised and outnumbered. And anyway, who the fuck pulls a gun in retaliation for an egging? The final and most serious time, I was attacked without warning from the back, and was knocked down to the floor trying to protect my head against my assailants' kicks long before I could have thought to draw a firearm. Shittons of violent crime is like this: it mostly neither justifies nor provides opportunity for gun use. Of course, I live in England, so at no point did I have to fear being shot. But I don't think that's in favour of owning firearms just-in-case either, frankly.

sparky_z 9y ago

For the point of view of the people this article is writing about, that's probably not a very convincing argument. While the statistics you cite are true, they don't take individual circumstances into account. How many of those accidents and thefts were caused by those gun owners being negligent fools? Probably a fair number of them. How much can proper storage, handling, and training mitigate those risks? Probably a lot. Rather than just just comparing the upside to the downside statistically, you have to compare the upside to the downside for yourself as an individual, including the steps you can take to maximize the former and minimize the latter.

mieseratte 9y ago
Lumping all gun owners into a statistic is pretty damn useless when you consider "gun owner" ranges from "DEVGRU" to "thinks holding a handgun sideways reduces recoil."

bitexploder 9y ago

It is hard to explain, or at least convince people of a fundamental aspect of firearms for personal protection. 1.) Mammals, humans included, are finnicky creatures with a fight/fight system at the deepest layer (physically) in our body and brain. 2.) Most people have not tested their fight/flight in a combat situation. From these two basic facts you can pretty much figure out most people who have plonked a few rounds at the range and acquired a concealed carry permit are as much a danger to themselves as to any attacker. To overcome this it requires hundreds of hours of drills and training to make the response safe to everyone but an attacker and within the framework of law in your area. It also requires ongoing training, probably every 1-3 months. If you aren't willing to do this, I don't think you should morally be packing concealed weapons in the name of self defense. This is mostly about handguns. Amusingly rifles are more practical in most prepper situations. Think home defense against other armed attackers where it isn't sudden and instant and close quarters. AR-15 is overkill, probably, but a reasonable option from a fortified position when you are dealing with multiple attackers. Unfortunately, they are also great at mowing down civilians in the hands of the mentally unbalanced. Anyway, just some musings of mine having grown up in the South and been around firearms most of my life.