8 ms·

Ok, let me make sure I understand. The goal is to live extremely frugally while you work so that you can retire very early and continue to live extremely frugal

by fhood 9y ago

Ok, let me make sure I understand. The goal is to live extremely frugally while you work so that you can retire very early and continue to live extremely frugally? Why? I don't hate working, and it allows me to fund my hobbies. If I wanted more free time I would just quit and do my own thing for a year. And many of my friends from college have done that. Maybe saving for retirement is the point. And the fun comes from attempting to accomplish that. I can understand, and thus respect that.

DarkTree 9y ago
> I don't hate working You answered your own question right away. Apparently, these people hate working more than they like being less frugal. I've had to be frugal to get by and it does become sort of like a game, where you are always trying to optimize your savings and tradeoffs. However, the stress involved with making these decisions and worrying about money made me appreciate working and making a good income, and I prefer this balance for now.
- JacobAldridge 9y ago
  There's definitely a big difference between being frugal to get by (stressful) and doing it to hit a 60% savings rate (ie, it's arbitrary). When you have the choice, frugal is much easier - or put differenty, it's expensive to be poor. You're spot on about balance being key.
wsinks 9y ago
I believe in the rap game this magic number is called "Fuck You Money". It means freedom from a lot of things.
3pt14159 9y ago
Because some people have skills that don't easily translate to happy job environments and they'd rather do things like tend a small veggie garden and teach their kids how to fish after they come home from school than clock another 65 hours balancing a spreadsheet for a hedge fund.
ahelwer 9y ago
No, the point is freedom. Liberating a tremendous chunk of our one, single life from the obligation to work in order to not starve/be homeless/etc. You can even keep working after you're reached your retirement number, but at that point it is because you chose to do it rather than having that choice thrust upon you.
- pbrb 9y ago
  This, times a million. I'm partially FIRE, because I think of it as partial retirement. I still plan to produce income, just not as regularly or as much as I do today so I have time to do the things that I want to in life.
- fhood 9y ago
  I guess that is fair. But as someone who works in software, the obligation to work has never loomed over me, because I always have extra money, and I know that I can quit my job and find a new one if I want. So I don't understand fixating on early retirement as a top priority. I understand that not everyone is in my situation though, and not everyone has the same motivations as me. I just think that living extremely frugally in your twenties is kind of a waste of your twenties.
  - vasilipupkin 9y ago
    exactly. You are trading one job ( the job ) for another ( constantly trying to live frugally ). Just get a job you like - voila, problem solved.
    - madamelic 9y ago
      >You are trading one job ( the job ) for another ( constantly trying to live frugally )b No, you are trading a job for any job you want. You aren't required to sit out on your porch and rock your days away. It just means you have an indefinite runway to figure out next steps. Mr. Money Mustache apparently makes crazy money now despite still living on $30k / yr, because he had time to find what he loved doing. And if he suddenly decides he doesn't like it, it means he can just... stop doing it. --- Actually. Let me phrase this in "valley speak". FIRE is about building and funding a personal basic income system.
Cofike 9y ago
It's hard for me to get into it. It seems that you basically just work your ass off for 20 years, live like a pauper, then you can retire once your (arguably) best years are gone. I'd rather just work and spend my money and experience things during that time. What also kind of bugged me with this article was that it sounds so crazy that these two people are doing this so young but then it's revealed they made a bunch of dosh off crypto which cheapens it a bit for me. This isn't just a road map one can follow, it implies some sort of luck ahead of time. I guess fortune favors the bold.
- robotcookies 9y ago
  > I'd rather just work and spend my money and experience things during that time. That makes sense if the things you enjoy cost a lot. But not everyone needs a lot of money to do things they enjoy. For those people, the real cost of having a day to day job is time. For example, I may really enjoy biking and that is a hobby which does not require much money - but it does need daylight and with a full time job you lose the majority of that.
  - bradlys 9y ago
    This in essence is what makes me (and presumably many others) incompatible with FIRE. The things I like to do, the places I like to live, and the standard of living I like cost too much for it to be compatible.
- atwebb 9y ago
  Your 40s come much earlier than you realize. I'm not full FIRE and haven't always pursued the highest income but am at a point where previous decisions and frugality are paying off. The future is unknown. The single best thing I did was focus on my health, that's an investment that will pay off as I age, regardless of my net worth.
ajkjk 9y ago
Well, if someone _does_ hate working, then it's immediately obvious why this would be appealing.
sjburt 9y ago
There's also the idea of getting to a point where you know you could retire, at which point any job do you do take is financially unnecessary.
arebop 9y ago
Some of these people might want to hedge against the possibility that they will be forcibly retired early by some misfortune (economic downturn, disability, ageism, ...).
ttul 9y ago
I think these people will find life tremendously boring post work. If your work is drudgery, then sure, retire early. But if you enjoy it, why the hell would you give that up to live a life of poverty?
- newfoundglory 9y ago
  If they enjoy it, they will probably keep working. The point is having saved enough that they can make that decision based on enjoyment, not based on needing to pay their mortgage and buy food.
- Viliam1234 9y ago
  > I think these people will find life tremendously boring post work. Why? Some people have hobbies and friends. And if they don't have to spend most of the daylight time at work, they have more time for doing what they enjoy most and spending their time with people whose company they enjoy most. > If your work is drudgery... But if you enjoy it... What if it's something in between? My job is nice in many ways. But give me enough money that I can spend the rest of my life doing my hobbies instead, and I will quit without thinking twice. It's not that the work sucks; I just enjoy my hobbies much more. > ...to live a life of poverty? Poverty is relative. I don't desire a new expensive car, exotic vacations, and other stuff some people spend a lot of money for. All I need is a roof above my head, food, computer, and internet connection. Plus some extra money for random unplanned situations. Then I can read books, watch videos, play computer games, write a blog, develop my own software, and take a walk in nature with my friends afterwards. That seems like quite happy life. Everyone has their own preferences. To me, the idea that someone needs a job to bring meaning to their life, sounds utterly horrifying. Maybe I am just misunderstanding something, but do such people have no friends? No things they want to learn? No non-profit causes they want to help? Spending most of your days doing one thing over and over again, means neglecting the rest of your life... or of what your life could have been otherwise.
JoshuaDavid 9y ago
While I'm sure that some people are trying to retire early because they hate working, others are doing so because they love freedom. Speaking for myself, I spent about a year travelling, and found it very hard to go back to a full-time job. So for me, a job is a way to buy freedom / quality of life, and the FIRE folks are just compiling a list of ways to get the best exchange rate. It also doesn't hurt that if you save up enough money to retire, then realize you want to continue working, you're not exactly in a bad place.
conanbatt 9y ago
I think there is something huge in being able to not work. That necessity is very binding. Can you quit your job for 2 years to study AI and change fields and earn more money and get a more rewarding job? (not you specifically, just an example). The constant nagging of rent, then work + strees and then spending to relieve that stress has something rotten at its core, and its that its aimless. Fire is a way to cope with that dynamic.
imgabe 9y ago
> The goal is to live extremely frugally while you work so that you can retire very early and continue to live extremely frugally? No, you don't understand, that is not the goal. The goal is to live a happy life in a way that allows you to save enough money to retire early. Step 1 is to disabuse yourself of the notion that you need to spend all your money to enjoy yourself.
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y ago
The idea is FIRE. FI - Financial Independence. This is the big one, and basically means you have enough money such that you aren't dependent on a job. It gives you freedom to leave a position you don't like, to take a job with less pay that you enjoy more, to ride out periods of unemployment without worry, etc. It can mean different things to different people. RE - Retire Early. This is an optional part that only some people aspire to. Many, like yourself it seems, don't mind working so will continue to do so. If you've already achieved a degree of FI, then you'll simply be able to spend more, or donate more , or whatever you'd like to do. For those that don't enjoy traditional employment, they might want to focus on personal pursuits, volunteer work, family, etc. The point is that you can make these choices on your own terms. One core idea in all of this is lifestyle creep; as you start to earn more, you find ways to spend it. No matter how much you make, it can seem like it's just enough. Even without being frivolous, it's an easy trap to fall into. And to an extent, it's just fine so long as you anticipate working until a normal retirement age and do save appropriately. But the observation here is that a relatively small delay in gratification, in delaying lifestyle creep, can lead to a large amount of financial independence. A bit of measured frugality can accumulate a large degree of wealth due to investment returns. Naturally, some will take this to an extreme that seems silly, but the basic idea is a very useful one.
snarf21 9y ago
There is always the other risk of dying in an accident at 30. Live is an adventure but not guaranteed. Don't forget to enjoy the journey.
- el_cid 9y ago
  But there should be a balance surely. I keep hearing this argument - but if you take it to face value you should maximize the present value. Why show up at work at all. Why pay insurance, pension at all then? There is a balance and the FIRE people are leaning more towards postponing benefits. I am sure not are on the extreme side (as the article seems to point out).
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
pragmatic 9y ago
You don't hate working... right now. What about in a year or ten? What happens when your back is in constant pain from desk work, or your hands are jacked up from years of typing? What about when you're on your fifth language and 25 platform/framework? You can't go back in n time and save. You can however live a full and fantastic life while still saving a lot of cash. It's really about taking care of future you.

by fhood 9y ago

DarkTree 9y ago

> I don't hate working You answered your own question right away. Apparently, these people hate working more than they like being less frugal. I've had to be frugal to get by and it does become sort of like a game, where you are always trying to optimize your savings and tradeoffs. However, the stress involved with making these decisions and worrying about money made me appreciate working and making a good income, and I prefer this balance for now.

JacobAldridge 9y ago
There's definitely a big difference between being frugal to get by (stressful) and doing it to hit a 60% savings rate (ie, it's arbitrary). When you have the choice, frugal is much easier - or put differenty, it's expensive to be poor. You're spot on about balance being key.

wsinks 9y ago

I believe in the rap game this magic number is called "Fuck You Money". It means freedom from a lot of things.

3pt14159 9y ago

Because some people have skills that don't easily translate to happy job environments and they'd rather do things like tend a small veggie garden and teach their kids how to fish after they come home from school than clock another 65 hours balancing a spreadsheet for a hedge fund.

ahelwer 9y ago

No, the point is freedom. Liberating a tremendous chunk of our one, single life from the obligation to work in order to not starve/be homeless/etc. You can even keep working after you're reached your retirement number, but at that point it is because you chose to do it rather than having that choice thrust upon you.

pbrb 9y ago
This, times a million. I'm partially FIRE, because I think of it as partial retirement. I still plan to produce income, just not as regularly or as much as I do today so I have time to do the things that I want to in life.
fhood 9y ago
I guess that is fair. But as someone who works in software, the obligation to work has never loomed over me, because I always have extra money, and I know that I can quit my job and find a new one if I want. So I don't understand fixating on early retirement as a top priority. I understand that not everyone is in my situation though, and not everyone has the same motivations as me. I just think that living extremely frugally in your twenties is kind of a waste of your twenties.
- vasilipupkin 9y ago
  exactly. You are trading one job ( the job ) for another ( constantly trying to live frugally ). Just get a job you like - voila, problem solved.
  - madamelic 9y ago
    >You are trading one job ( the job ) for another ( constantly trying to live frugally )b No, you are trading a job for any job you want. You aren't required to sit out on your porch and rock your days away. It just means you have an indefinite runway to figure out next steps. Mr. Money Mustache apparently makes crazy money now despite still living on $30k / yr, because he had time to find what he loved doing. And if he suddenly decides he doesn't like it, it means he can just... stop doing it. --- Actually. Let me phrase this in "valley speak". FIRE is about building and funding a personal basic income system.

Cofike 9y ago

It's hard for me to get into it. It seems that you basically just work your ass off for 20 years, live like a pauper, then you can retire once your (arguably) best years are gone. I'd rather just work and spend my money and experience things during that time. What also kind of bugged me with this article was that it sounds so crazy that these two people are doing this so young but then it's revealed they made a bunch of dosh off crypto which cheapens it a bit for me. This isn't just a road map one can follow, it implies some sort of luck ahead of time. I guess fortune favors the bold.

robotcookies 9y ago
> I'd rather just work and spend my money and experience things during that time. That makes sense if the things you enjoy cost a lot. But not everyone needs a lot of money to do things they enjoy. For those people, the real cost of having a day to day job is time. For example, I may really enjoy biking and that is a hobby which does not require much money - but it does need daylight and with a full time job you lose the majority of that.
- bradlys 9y ago
  This in essence is what makes me (and presumably many others) incompatible with FIRE. The things I like to do, the places I like to live, and the standard of living I like cost too much for it to be compatible.
atwebb 9y ago
Your 40s come much earlier than you realize. I'm not full FIRE and haven't always pursued the highest income but am at a point where previous decisions and frugality are paying off. The future is unknown. The single best thing I did was focus on my health, that's an investment that will pay off as I age, regardless of my net worth.

ajkjk 9y ago

Well, if someone _does_ hate working, then it's immediately obvious why this would be appealing.

sjburt 9y ago

There's also the idea of getting to a point where you know you could retire, at which point any job do you do take is financially unnecessary.

arebop 9y ago

Some of these people might want to hedge against the possibility that they will be forcibly retired early by some misfortune (economic downturn, disability, ageism, ...).

ttul 9y ago

I think these people will find life tremendously boring post work. If your work is drudgery, then sure, retire early. But if you enjoy it, why the hell would you give that up to live a life of poverty?

newfoundglory 9y ago
If they enjoy it, they will probably keep working. The point is having saved enough that they can make that decision based on enjoyment, not based on needing to pay their mortgage and buy food.
Viliam1234 9y ago
> I think these people will find life tremendously boring post work. Why? Some people have hobbies and friends. And if they don't have to spend most of the daylight time at work, they have more time for doing what they enjoy most and spending their time with people whose company they enjoy most. > If your work is drudgery... But if you enjoy it... What if it's something in between? My job is nice in many ways. But give me enough money that I can spend the rest of my life doing my hobbies instead, and I will quit without thinking twice. It's not that the work sucks; I just enjoy my hobbies much more. > ...to live a life of poverty? Poverty is relative. I don't desire a new expensive car, exotic vacations, and other stuff some people spend a lot of money for. All I need is a roof above my head, food, computer, and internet connection. Plus some extra money for random unplanned situations. Then I can read books, watch videos, play computer games, write a blog, develop my own software, and take a walk in nature with my friends afterwards. That seems like quite happy life. Everyone has their own preferences. To me, the idea that someone needs a job to bring meaning to their life, sounds utterly horrifying. Maybe I am just misunderstanding something, but do such people have no friends? No things they want to learn? No non-profit causes they want to help? Spending most of your days doing one thing over and over again, means neglecting the rest of your life... or of what your life could have been otherwise.

JoshuaDavid 9y ago

While I'm sure that some people are trying to retire early because they hate working, others are doing so because they love freedom. Speaking for myself, I spent about a year travelling, and found it very hard to go back to a full-time job. So for me, a job is a way to buy freedom / quality of life, and the FIRE folks are just compiling a list of ways to get the best exchange rate. It also doesn't hurt that if you save up enough money to retire, then realize you want to continue working, you're not exactly in a bad place.

conanbatt 9y ago

I think there is something huge in being able to not work. That necessity is very binding. Can you quit your job for 2 years to study AI and change fields and earn more money and get a more rewarding job? (not you specifically, just an example). The constant nagging of rent, then work + strees and then spending to relieve that stress has something rotten at its core, and its that its aimless. Fire is a way to cope with that dynamic.

imgabe 9y ago

> The goal is to live extremely frugally while you work so that you can retire very early and continue to live extremely frugally? No, you don't understand, that is not the goal. The goal is to live a happy life in a way that allows you to save enough money to retire early. Step 1 is to disabuse yourself of the notion that you need to spend all your money to enjoy yourself.

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y ago

The idea is FIRE. FI - Financial Independence. This is the big one, and basically means you have enough money such that you aren't dependent on a job. It gives you freedom to leave a position you don't like, to take a job with less pay that you enjoy more, to ride out periods of unemployment without worry, etc. It can mean different things to different people. RE - Retire Early. This is an optional part that only some people aspire to. Many, like yourself it seems, don't mind working so will continue to do so. If you've already achieved a degree of FI, then you'll simply be able to spend more, or donate more , or whatever you'd like to do. For those that don't enjoy traditional employment, they might want to focus on personal pursuits, volunteer work, family, etc. The point is that you can make these choices on your own terms. One core idea in all of this is lifestyle creep; as you start to earn more, you find ways to spend it. No matter how much you make, it can seem like it's just enough. Even without being frivolous, it's an easy trap to fall into. And to an extent, it's just fine so long as you anticipate working until a normal retirement age and do save appropriately. But the observation here is that a relatively small delay in gratification, in delaying lifestyle creep, can lead to a large amount of financial independence. A bit of measured frugality can accumulate a large degree of wealth due to investment returns. Naturally, some will take this to an extreme that seems silly, but the basic idea is a very useful one.

snarf21 9y ago

There is always the other risk of dying in an accident at 30. Live is an adventure but not guaranteed. Don't forget to enjoy the journey.

el_cid 9y ago
But there should be a balance surely. I keep hearing this argument - but if you take it to face value you should maximize the present value. Why show up at work at all. Why pay insurance, pension at all then? There is a balance and the FIRE people are leaning more towards postponing benefits. I am sure not are on the extreme side (as the article seems to point out).

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

pragmatic 9y ago

You don't hate working... right now. What about in a year or ten? What happens when your back is in constant pain from desk work, or your hands are jacked up from years of typing? What about when you're on your fifth language and 25 platform/framework? You can't go back in n time and save. You can however live a full and fantastic life while still saving a lot of cash. It's really about taking care of future you.