4 ms·

No, they are under attack by eurocrats that dream of a uniform Europe under one central government. If the EU wants to do help Europe, it should become democrat

by Hermel 8y ago

No, they are under attack by eurocrats that dream of a uniform Europe under one central government. If the EU wants to do help Europe, it should become democratic (today, it isn't, the only democratically elected body of the EU is the parliament, but that "parliament" does not even have the power to propose new laws because their is no proper separation of powers) and actually live subsidiarity (a principle that is recognized on paper only).

ginko 8y ago
Well, last time they tried that (EU constitution) it was shot down by the same people that complain that the EU isn't democratic enough.
- LoSboccacc 8y ago
  the problem is that this EU is a tyrannical democracy. it's too easy to strong-arm some states into swallowing some policy that benefits everyone but them, like Dublin III, like production quotas, like fishing rights... this leaves basically everyone discontent about something everywhere.
  - Double_a_92 8y ago
    > this leaves basically everyone discontent about something everywhere. That's life, I guess.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    > this leaves basically everyone discontent about something everywhere. Isn't that the definition of a good compromise? I mean, each EU country is fighting to get itself the best deal, to bolster its position over other EU states. There is no way to make it so that everyone (or even the majority) is happy, when the definition of "happy" is "much more than you could possibly get".
- baud147258 8y ago
  Then UE walked on the democratic opinion of its citizens and established the constitution without asking the citizens, with the treaty of Lisbon.
  - ginko 8y ago
    The Treaty of Lisbon is not equivalent with the proposed constitution. It merely amends current EU legislation with some aspects salvaged from the far further-reaching Treaty Establishing a Constitution for Europe.
toyg 8y ago
The EU is democratic: it empowers the democratically-elected governments of 27 states to collectively make policy (most of the time by unanimous voting, traditionally), and then empowers the population at large, as directly represented in EuroParliament through proportional methods, to amend or reject such policy. The Commission is not instated by God Almighty or by hereditary laws: it is nominated by democratically-elected national governments. The Council does not spring fully-formed from the head of Zeus: it is made of democratically-elected governments. The European Court of Justice was not created by the Pope 1000 years ago: it was created by democratically-elected governments through treaties. And so on and so forth. The fact that such governments are then able to sustain the fiction that they have no say in EU matters, is more a reflection of the poor state of critical thinking in voters across the continent than an indictment of EU's "democracy level", whatever that might mean... unless we assume that a process is democratic when it agrees with one's opinions, and completely tyrannical when it doesn't.

by Hermel 8y ago

ginko 8y ago

Well, last time they tried that (EU constitution) it was shot down by the same people that complain that the EU isn't democratic enough.

LoSboccacc 8y ago
the problem is that this EU is a tyrannical democracy. it's too easy to strong-arm some states into swallowing some policy that benefits everyone but them, like Dublin III, like production quotas, like fishing rights... this leaves basically everyone discontent about something everywhere.
- Double_a_92 8y ago
  > this leaves basically everyone discontent about something everywhere. That's life, I guess.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  > this leaves basically everyone discontent about something everywhere. Isn't that the definition of a good compromise? I mean, each EU country is fighting to get itself the best deal, to bolster its position over other EU states. There is no way to make it so that everyone (or even the majority) is happy, when the definition of "happy" is "much more than you could possibly get".
baud147258 8y ago
Then UE walked on the democratic opinion of its citizens and established the constitution without asking the citizens, with the treaty of Lisbon.
- ginko 8y ago
  The Treaty of Lisbon is not equivalent with the proposed constitution. It merely amends current EU legislation with some aspects salvaged from the far further-reaching Treaty Establishing a Constitution for Europe.

toyg 8y ago

The EU is democratic: it empowers the democratically-elected governments of 27 states to collectively make policy (most of the time by unanimous voting, traditionally), and then empowers the population at large, as directly represented in EuroParliament through proportional methods, to amend or reject such policy. The Commission is not instated by God Almighty or by hereditary laws: it is nominated by democratically-elected national governments. The Council does not spring fully-formed from the head of Zeus: it is made of democratically-elected governments. The European Court of Justice was not created by the Pope 1000 years ago: it was created by democratically-elected governments through treaties. And so on and so forth. The fact that such governments are then able to sustain the fiction that they have no say in EU matters, is more a reflection of the poor state of critical thinking in voters across the continent than an indictment of EU's "democracy level", whatever that might mean... unless we assume that a process is democratic when it agrees with one's opinions, and completely tyrannical when it doesn't.