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I've been using VSCode for years and it's been great, but I'm always looking for learning something new. I keep reading about Vim and last time I checked it see

by fbnlsr 8y ago

I've been using VSCode for years and it's been great, but I'm always looking for learning something new. I keep reading about Vim and last time I checked it seems SO complicated to use. I don't understand how it's so popular. Is it because it's blazing fast?

caspervonb 8y ago
Does editing text with the keyboard alone make sense to you? That's the gist of it, you use commands to manipulate text. It's hard to grok at first when you're only used to textarea style editors without modes.
movedx 8y ago
It has a learning curve that'll take about 2-3 weeks to convert to muscle memory and become habit. Give it a shot. You'll learn something new and if it doesn't work out, VSCode will still be there :-)
jannes 8y ago
You can use vim keybindings in VSCode. It mostly works, except for more advanced stuff. Correct indentation when pasting is a pain in my opinion. And somehow I find the VSCode's multi-cursor feature so much more convenient than Vim's macros.
- movedx 8y ago
  > Correct indentation when pasting is a pain in my opinion. :set paste :)
- SPBS 8y ago
  > And somehow I find the VSCode's multi-cursor feature so much more convenient than Vim's macros. That’s not an unpopular opinion, I suspect it’s because multiple cursors provide an extremely tight visual feedback loop (feedback after every action) as compared to macros where you kind of just shove actions into a black box and pray it works correctly for the next location you test it on
- matzy 8y ago
  gg=G couldn't be easier my friend
stiGGG 8y ago
Using vim is like driving a car with manual transmission. The first time you do it, it seems so extremely complicated and you think you never would be able to be fast with it. After some time you are got used to it and you think it‘s impossible to be fast without it.
dakom 8y ago
I switched over the past month or so - started by using the vim plugin, and then eventually when ditched it and went with vim itself. The scary thing for me, even after getting used to navigation, was the lack of it feeling like an IDE - autocomplete, compile on save, etc. After installing some plugins - it's now wonderful and I enjoy it much more than VSCode. There's a ton of little extra benefits you get from the switch besides the usual - for example, when you use a mouse, the time you spend navigating visually is kinda wasted. With a keyboard, that time is spent thinking about "what's the next parenthesis" or "what's inside these quotes" which turns idle time into something more useful like getting more familiar with the code.
hungerstrike 8y ago
Vim isn't that popular with coders. Visual Studio and Notepad++ are the most popular across the board while Vim is preferred by Sysadmins according to this Stackoverflow survey from 2017 - https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#technology-most-popular-developer-environments-by-occupation https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#technology-mo... Notice how those numbers don't add up to 100%. They let you pick multiple answers on the survey. Therefore, I would consider Vim percentage even lower in reality since many people would specify it on a survey since they basically have to use it while working on a server. Vim is used by a small but very loud minority. Don't listen to them - they're optimizing for the wrong thing (keeping your fingers on the home-row of the keyboard) at the expense of just about every other aspect of computing.
- movedx 8y ago
  > Vim is used by a small but very loud minority. Don't listen to them - they're optimizing for the wrong thing (keeping your fingers on the home-row of the keyboard) at the expense of just about every other aspect of computing. It would be good if you could unpack this some more and explain it in detail. If I'm wasting my time then I'd like to know why and consider whether or not I should change my practices. The part of your statement that stands out to me is, "keeping your fingers on the home-row of the keyboard". I think this is called touch typing and I can assure you, I don't do it. I'm fast on the keyboard, but not as fast as a touch typist. I throw my fingers all over the place, actually. Vim for me simply boils down to being a fast, simple, lightweight tool that offers years upon years of development in both the core of the product and plugins, themes, etc. I'm not really sure how my choice of hammer can be optimising for the wrong thing if it does the same thing your hammer does and we're both productive?
  - hungerstrike 8y ago
    > if it does the same thing your hammer does... It does not do the same thing as my hammer. Not even close. As a matter of fact, with Vim you cannot get even half the functionality of a good graphical IDE or even something like VSCode without drastically lowering your standards. > Optimizing the wrong thing...at the expense of just about every other aspect of computing... Vim lacks discoverability. That's the first major aspect of computing that Vim just completely throws out the window. Speaking of windows - Vim also lacks integration with the rest of your graphical OS by default. You can't use your normal graphical file picker, you can't just drag files into Vim and you can't easily configure Vims activity to be reflected in the rest of your OS (in areas such as recently-edited-files and so on). Sure, you can get a graphical version of Vim, but now you have 2 problems - you have to configure different versions of Vim to use it the way you want to. Even the mouse pointer a hallmark of modern computing, is largely useless in Vim! Also, text-based configuration is throwing out another majorly useful aspect of computing: convenient and easy to access settings. Anyway, if you enjoy editing text like it's 1976 - that's fine with me. Just don't try and tell me it's as good as my hammer because it simply is not.

by fbnlsr 8y ago

caspervonb 8y ago

Does editing text with the keyboard alone make sense to you? That's the gist of it, you use commands to manipulate text. It's hard to grok at first when you're only used to textarea style editors without modes.

movedx 8y ago

It has a learning curve that'll take about 2-3 weeks to convert to muscle memory and become habit. Give it a shot. You'll learn something new and if it doesn't work out, VSCode will still be there :-)

jannes 8y ago

You can use vim keybindings in VSCode. It mostly works, except for more advanced stuff. Correct indentation when pasting is a pain in my opinion. And somehow I find the VSCode's multi-cursor feature so much more convenient than Vim's macros.

movedx 8y ago
> Correct indentation when pasting is a pain in my opinion. :set paste :)
SPBS 8y ago
> And somehow I find the VSCode's multi-cursor feature so much more convenient than Vim's macros. That’s not an unpopular opinion, I suspect it’s because multiple cursors provide an extremely tight visual feedback loop (feedback after every action) as compared to macros where you kind of just shove actions into a black box and pray it works correctly for the next location you test it on
matzy 8y ago
gg=G couldn't be easier my friend

stiGGG 8y ago

Using vim is like driving a car with manual transmission. The first time you do it, it seems so extremely complicated and you think you never would be able to be fast with it. After some time you are got used to it and you think it‘s impossible to be fast without it.

dakom 8y ago

I switched over the past month or so - started by using the vim plugin, and then eventually when ditched it and went with vim itself. The scary thing for me, even after getting used to navigation, was the lack of it feeling like an IDE - autocomplete, compile on save, etc. After installing some plugins - it's now wonderful and I enjoy it much more than VSCode. There's a ton of little extra benefits you get from the switch besides the usual - for example, when you use a mouse, the time you spend navigating visually is kinda wasted. With a keyboard, that time is spent thinking about "what's the next parenthesis" or "what's inside these quotes" which turns idle time into something more useful like getting more familiar with the code.

hungerstrike 8y ago

Vim isn't that popular with coders. Visual Studio and Notepad++ are the most popular across the board while Vim is preferred by Sysadmins according to this Stackoverflow survey from 2017 - https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#technology-most-popular-developer-environments-by-occupation https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#technology-mo... Notice how those numbers don't add up to 100%. They let you pick multiple answers on the survey. Therefore, I would consider Vim percentage even lower in reality since many people would specify it on a survey since they basically have to use it while working on a server. Vim is used by a small but very loud minority. Don't listen to them - they're optimizing for the wrong thing (keeping your fingers on the home-row of the keyboard) at the expense of just about every other aspect of computing.

movedx 8y ago
> Vim is used by a small but very loud minority. Don't listen to them - they're optimizing for the wrong thing (keeping your fingers on the home-row of the keyboard) at the expense of just about every other aspect of computing. It would be good if you could unpack this some more and explain it in detail. If I'm wasting my time then I'd like to know why and consider whether or not I should change my practices. The part of your statement that stands out to me is, "keeping your fingers on the home-row of the keyboard". I think this is called touch typing and I can assure you, I don't do it. I'm fast on the keyboard, but not as fast as a touch typist. I throw my fingers all over the place, actually. Vim for me simply boils down to being a fast, simple, lightweight tool that offers years upon years of development in both the core of the product and plugins, themes, etc. I'm not really sure how my choice of hammer can be optimising for the wrong thing if it does the same thing your hammer does and we're both productive?
- hungerstrike 8y ago
  > if it does the same thing your hammer does... It does not do the same thing as my hammer. Not even close. As a matter of fact, with Vim you cannot get even half the functionality of a good graphical IDE or even something like VSCode without drastically lowering your standards. > Optimizing the wrong thing...at the expense of just about every other aspect of computing... Vim lacks discoverability. That's the first major aspect of computing that Vim just completely throws out the window. Speaking of windows - Vim also lacks integration with the rest of your graphical OS by default. You can't use your normal graphical file picker, you can't just drag files into Vim and you can't easily configure Vims activity to be reflected in the rest of your OS (in areas such as recently-edited-files and so on). Sure, you can get a graphical version of Vim, but now you have 2 problems - you have to configure different versions of Vim to use it the way you want to. Even the mouse pointer a hallmark of modern computing, is largely useless in Vim! Also, text-based configuration is throwing out another majorly useful aspect of computing: convenient and easy to access settings. Anyway, if you enjoy editing text like it's 1976 - that's fine with me. Just don't try and tell me it's as good as my hammer because it simply is not.