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> You won't be compensated at the same rates that you would be in California, but the cost of living would make up for it. No, it generally doesn't. It depends

> You won't be compensated at the same rates that you would be in California, but the cost of living would make up for it. No, it generally doesn't. It depends on the specific numbers of course (how much of a salary cut, how much cheaper is the housing costs), but a lot of people make that blanket statement because of a mathematical fallacy: The fallacy is if I make half as much, but my expenses are half as much, then I'm just as well off. That statement is mathematically false. Here's a made up example: San Francisco salary is $140K (or $84K after 40% taxes deducted) and rent or mortgage is $3000/month ($36K/year). Boise salary is half as much at $70K (or $42K after 40% taxes deducted) and rent or mortgage are also half as much at $1500/month ($18K/year). Now calculate disposable income after taxes and housing costs: In San Francisco it's $48K (i.e., $84K - $36K) and in Boise it would be $24K (i.e., $42K - $18K). Clearly, in this example, you'd still be $24K better off in San Francisco. I know that I made many assumptions above. I'm just illustrating the fallacy that people often make. Halving your income and halving your expenses is not neutral -- it is worse.

lotharbot 9y ago
software engineer salary somewhere else is usually more like 20-25% less rather than 50% less -- someone making 140k in SF might make 110k-120k in places like Boise or Denver. They'll pay 5k less in taxes (both due to lower total income and lower state tax rates). So saving 18k in housing costs puts them at least in a comparable disposable-income range. For people in lower-paying careers, the lower housing costs elsewhere almost always dwarf the pay differences. For higher-paying careers, the pay differences are the dominant factor. Mid-range software engineer salary is actually pretty close to the dividing line, which makes it particularly important to evaluate the specific numbers yourself.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  > software engineer salary somewhere else is usually more like 20-25% less rather than 50% less -- someone making 140k in SF might make 110k-120k in places like Boise or Denver. Worth pointing out that this function doesn't work for inputs much higher than $150k or so, and doesn't even work at points like $140k depending on the particular candidate.
- Judgmentality 9y ago
  > someone making 140k in SF might make 110k-120k in places like Boise or Denver As someone who moved from Pittsburgh to San Francisco and had my compensation quadruple, I call bullshit.
  - lotharbot 9y ago
    As someone who was looking at the data on glassdoor while writing my comment, and who has dealt with offers from recruiters, and who has an extensive network of friends who are open about their earnings, I call bullshit on your calling of bullshit. There are certainly outliers. There are certainly people with excellent skills who are being underutilized, and who will get paid a lot more if they find the exact right fit. Just a wild guess, but you didn't go from 35k in Pittsburgh to 140k in SF, you went from a lot more than that in Pittsburgh to a lot more than that in SF. If you're up in the 200k+ range in software in SF, you'd probably earn a lot less going anywhere except maybe NY or Boston. But if you're in the "average software engineer salary" range in SF, the falloff going to a mid-sized city is not nearly as steep.
    - pm90 9y ago
      > But if you're in the "average software engineer salary" range in SF, the falloff going to a mid-sized city is not nearly as steep. But that is exactly why Engineers want to be in SF! Other markets won’t compensate you nearly as well, or increase your compensation as much, as companies in the Bay Area. However, if one has a family and kids, I could see moving to a city with more affordable housing and good schools as a worthy trade off.
    - Judgmentality 9y ago
      My point is most engineers in Boise are not making 6 digits. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/boise-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,5_IM104_KO6,23.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/boise-software-engineer-s...
      - lotharbot 9y ago
        "software engineers" in SF aren't making 140k either. If you look across several software-related job titles that are around 140k in SF (you may have to include terms like "lead" or "senior") you'll find Boise salaries to be closer to 3/4 than 1/2. Some are a little lower, some a little higher. Denver tends to be a little higher than Boise but still well below SF. Housing costs in Denver are also considerably higher than Boise and considerably lower than SF. Which goes back to my original point: that it's particularly important for people in that approximate salary range to run the numbers for themselves and their own situations. While for people making a lot more the higher salary easily dwarfs the CoL and for people making a lot less the CoL easily dwarfs the salary, for people making not-particularly-exceptional salaries within the general software field, the numbers are similar enough that the specific offer + your specific housing need + other personal details can make the difference.
twblalock 9y ago
Plus, cost of living doesn't account for everything. Most consumer products, e.g. cars, computers, shoes, and clothing, cost about the same everywhere. Living in San Francisco with a higher salary and paying a high rent, your spending on such products will be a smaller percentage of your income than if you lived somewhere with cheaper housing and made less money.
- rayiner 9y ago
  But housing, schools, child care, etc., make up a much bigger fraction of expenses.
- davewritescode 9y ago
  With more and more students coming out of college with debt, your student loans account for a much smaller percentage of income in a city like SF than in Boise
- justherefortart 9y ago
  Lmfao, nothing cost about the same living in San Francisco. Not to mention taxes are significantly higher as you earn more (progressive) and there are tons of things that nickel and dime you every day. For example, a bottle of 200 ibuprofen in SF runs about $12-14. I buy it for $3-4. It was so surprising I started filling a bag full of non perishable items every time I'd visit family in the midwest. You add this across hundreds of things you use and it adds up quickly. And that's nothing compared to the rent.
- closeparen 9y ago
  Parking in San Francisco is at least a second car payment. I'm not sure it actually matters that cars themselves are more affordable. And the rest is going to be trivial as a percentage of your income either way.
WillPostForFood 9y ago
Housing isn’t twice as expensive in San Francisco, it is 10x. Median price per square foot is $129 in Boise, vs $1550 for Palo Alto, or $993 in SF, $1220 SOMA.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  $/sqft isn't a good metric. The correct metric is "what am I actually going to spend on housing?" This way, the answer begins to change as your family size grows. Which I think is accurate.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  How about to rent? Still 10X? A lot more people are looking to rent than to buy (at least straight off anyway).
  - _delirium 9y ago
    Looks like around 3-4x. RentCafe gives average SF prices of: studio $2.5k, 1bd $3.2k, 2bd $4.3k. Versus Boise: studio $0.7k, 1bd $0.9k, 2bd $1k. https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/san-francisco/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/sa... https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/id/ada-county/boise-city/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/id/ad...
    - CydeWeys 9y ago
      So you need to clear roughly $40K more in pre-tax salary to make up the difference between SF and Boise (accounting for both tax and rent on a studio). That seems doable. Note that the difference is less if you didn't have a car in SF (or NYC) but need one in Boise.
      - _delirium 9y ago
        It does sound doable. I'd probably put the breakeven at closer to $60k pretax for me personally, since I live in a 2bd and don't really want to downsize to a studio, though I realize some people are fine living in studio apts. Depends a lot on the job though. In my line of work (academia), I don't think you could easily get $60k more by moving from a low-CoL to a high-CoL city. From offers I know of, the salary difference is closer to $20k. Even Stanford (which isn't exactly easy to get a job at in the first place) pays only marginally more than comparable universities in low-CoL areas like Georgia Tech, CMU, or UIUC. But I'm sure you could swing a $60k+ raise in some other lines of work.

lotharbot 9y ago

software engineer salary somewhere else is usually more like 20-25% less rather than 50% less -- someone making 140k in SF might make 110k-120k in places like Boise or Denver. They'll pay 5k less in taxes (both due to lower total income and lower state tax rates). So saving 18k in housing costs puts them at least in a comparable disposable-income range. For people in lower-paying careers, the lower housing costs elsewhere almost always dwarf the pay differences. For higher-paying careers, the pay differences are the dominant factor. Mid-range software engineer salary is actually pretty close to the dividing line, which makes it particularly important to evaluate the specific numbers yourself.

throwawayjava 9y ago
> software engineer salary somewhere else is usually more like 20-25% less rather than 50% less -- someone making 140k in SF might make 110k-120k in places like Boise or Denver. Worth pointing out that this function doesn't work for inputs much higher than $150k or so, and doesn't even work at points like $140k depending on the particular candidate.
Judgmentality 9y ago
> someone making 140k in SF might make 110k-120k in places like Boise or Denver As someone who moved from Pittsburgh to San Francisco and had my compensation quadruple, I call bullshit.
- lotharbot 9y ago
  As someone who was looking at the data on glassdoor while writing my comment, and who has dealt with offers from recruiters, and who has an extensive network of friends who are open about their earnings, I call bullshit on your calling of bullshit. There are certainly outliers. There are certainly people with excellent skills who are being underutilized, and who will get paid a lot more if they find the exact right fit. Just a wild guess, but you didn't go from 35k in Pittsburgh to 140k in SF, you went from a lot more than that in Pittsburgh to a lot more than that in SF. If you're up in the 200k+ range in software in SF, you'd probably earn a lot less going anywhere except maybe NY or Boston. But if you're in the "average software engineer salary" range in SF, the falloff going to a mid-sized city is not nearly as steep.
  - pm90 9y ago
    > But if you're in the "average software engineer salary" range in SF, the falloff going to a mid-sized city is not nearly as steep. But that is exactly why Engineers want to be in SF! Other markets won’t compensate you nearly as well, or increase your compensation as much, as companies in the Bay Area. However, if one has a family and kids, I could see moving to a city with more affordable housing and good schools as a worthy trade off.
  - Judgmentality 9y ago
    My point is most engineers in Boise are not making 6 digits. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/boise-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,5_IM104_KO6,23.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/boise-software-engineer-s...
    - lotharbot 9y ago
      "software engineers" in SF aren't making 140k either. If you look across several software-related job titles that are around 140k in SF (you may have to include terms like "lead" or "senior") you'll find Boise salaries to be closer to 3/4 than 1/2. Some are a little lower, some a little higher. Denver tends to be a little higher than Boise but still well below SF. Housing costs in Denver are also considerably higher than Boise and considerably lower than SF. Which goes back to my original point: that it's particularly important for people in that approximate salary range to run the numbers for themselves and their own situations. While for people making a lot more the higher salary easily dwarfs the CoL and for people making a lot less the CoL easily dwarfs the salary, for people making not-particularly-exceptional salaries within the general software field, the numbers are similar enough that the specific offer + your specific housing need + other personal details can make the difference.

twblalock 9y ago

Plus, cost of living doesn't account for everything. Most consumer products, e.g. cars, computers, shoes, and clothing, cost about the same everywhere. Living in San Francisco with a higher salary and paying a high rent, your spending on such products will be a smaller percentage of your income than if you lived somewhere with cheaper housing and made less money.

rayiner 9y ago
But housing, schools, child care, etc., make up a much bigger fraction of expenses.
davewritescode 9y ago
With more and more students coming out of college with debt, your student loans account for a much smaller percentage of income in a city like SF than in Boise
justherefortart 9y ago
Lmfao, nothing cost about the same living in San Francisco. Not to mention taxes are significantly higher as you earn more (progressive) and there are tons of things that nickel and dime you every day. For example, a bottle of 200 ibuprofen in SF runs about $12-14. I buy it for $3-4. It was so surprising I started filling a bag full of non perishable items every time I'd visit family in the midwest. You add this across hundreds of things you use and it adds up quickly. And that's nothing compared to the rent.
closeparen 9y ago
Parking in San Francisco is at least a second car payment. I'm not sure it actually matters that cars themselves are more affordable. And the rest is going to be trivial as a percentage of your income either way.

WillPostForFood 9y ago

Housing isn’t twice as expensive in San Francisco, it is 10x. Median price per square foot is $129 in Boise, vs $1550 for Palo Alto, or $993 in SF, $1220 SOMA.

throwawayjava 9y ago
$/sqft isn't a good metric. The correct metric is "what am I actually going to spend on housing?" This way, the answer begins to change as your family size grows. Which I think is accurate.
CydeWeys 9y ago
How about to rent? Still 10X? A lot more people are looking to rent than to buy (at least straight off anyway).
- _delirium 9y ago
  Looks like around 3-4x. RentCafe gives average SF prices of: studio $2.5k, 1bd $3.2k, 2bd $4.3k. Versus Boise: studio $0.7k, 1bd $0.9k, 2bd $1k. https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/san-francisco/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/sa... https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/id/ada-county/boise-city/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/id/ad...
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    So you need to clear roughly $40K more in pre-tax salary to make up the difference between SF and Boise (accounting for both tax and rent on a studio). That seems doable. Note that the difference is less if you didn't have a car in SF (or NYC) but need one in Boise.
    - _delirium 9y ago
      It does sound doable. I'd probably put the breakeven at closer to $60k pretax for me personally, since I live in a 2bd and don't really want to downsize to a studio, though I realize some people are fine living in studio apts. Depends a lot on the job though. In my line of work (academia), I don't think you could easily get $60k more by moving from a low-CoL to a high-CoL city. From offers I know of, the salary difference is closer to $20k. Even Stanford (which isn't exactly easy to get a job at in the first place) pays only marginally more than comparable universities in low-CoL areas like Georgia Tech, CMU, or UIUC. But I'm sure you could swing a $60k+ raise in some other lines of work.