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The process used by the car industry is state of the art and highly competitive. But the product itself has areas that have seen very little innovation for deca

The process used by the car industry is state of the art and highly competitive. But the product itself has areas that have seen very little innovation for decades - just incremental optimization. Tesla started with a clean slate, of course they will repeat some mistakes but they have the prospect of building a revolutionary product. In a way, a bit of chaos comes with the territory.

gamblor956 9y ago
Name one thing that Tesla has done that is revolutionary rather than evolutionary? (Working features only, otherwise you're comparing it to a very long list of revolutionary features being researched by mainstream auto companies)
- matt4077 9y ago
  Being cool. People don’t like to acknowledge this as an accomplishment. But the idea, and successful implementation, of selling an electric car that isn’t what a soy patty on gluten-free bread is to a burger was quite a revolution.
  - gamblor956 9y ago
    Being cool is a matter of marketing, not engineering. The Prius design is beloved in Japan, where it was designed. The Bolt is considered extremely stylish for a compact sedan/hatchback. And both are considered cool within their target markets.
    - nugga 9y ago
      Tesla doesn't advertise (yet). They have a huge word of mouth / Elon Musk cult following. He must be doing something right for getting all that loyalty and hype. A few hundred thousand preorders with 1000 bux down is something.
      - gamblor956 9y ago
        Tesla has had billboards all over LA and SF for many years now, so your definition of advertising must be very different from the normal definition. Any company following GAAP (standard accounting practices) would also consider stunts like the "flame thrower" and the Roadster in space to be marketing activities. The only marketing activity Tesla hasn't actually used is paid TV commercials, unless you include Hulu or online streaming, in which case... Tesla has actually used every mode of advertising commonly used by its competitors. The fact that Tesla doesn't actually categorize its marketing activities as marketing in its financial statements just means that Tesla isn't following GAAP.
      - bjl 9y ago
        What are you taking about? Tesla spends millions a quarter on advertising and PR.
      - rgbrenner 9y ago
        I've seen the articles where you got that from... But that's BS. Just read their 10K (this is from Q4 2017): Marketing, promotional and advertising costs are expensed as incurred and are included as an element of selling, general and administrative expense in the consolidated statement of operations. We incurred marketing, promotional and advertising costs of $66.5 million, $48.0 million and $58.3 million in the years ended December 31, 2017, 2016 and 2015, respectively. http://ir.tesla.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1564590-18-2956 http://ir.tesla.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1564590-18-2956
        nugga 9y ago
        Fair enough, so they put some marketing stuff as expenses and might have some visibility in the real world, but it also says in the same document: Historically, we have been able to generate significant media coverage of our company and our vehicles, and we believe we will continue to do so. To date, for vehicle sales, media coverage and word of mouth have been the primary drivers of our sales leads and have helped us achieve sales without traditional advertising and at relatively low marketing costs.
    - Theodores 9y ago
      Not really, the GM product is a loss leader, well, follower, the lose $9k on each one.
    - ericd 9y ago
      Who is the Bolt considered extremely stylish by? To me, at least, it screams "econo-box". Has it won some design awards or something?
- maneesh 9y ago
  Their method of redesigning the frame / car that led to revolutionary results in safety: https://www.tesla.com/it_IT/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best-safety-rating-any-car-ever-tested%20 https://www.tesla.com/it_IT/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best...
  - gamblor956 9y ago
    Try again. Frunks were around before Tesla...as far back as the 1960s. This is just an evolutionary iteration of modern cars, which are design to absorb crash energy in a crash by crumpling. And even Tesla admits that its higher rates are almost entirely due to the frunk providing a larger crumple zone. Also, Tesla is known to misrepresent in it's PR releases. See https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/06/insurance-institute-for-highway-safety-tests-tesla-model-s.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/06/insurance-institute-for-high..., in which the IIHS notes that Tesla only received an "acceptable" for the type of crash that actually results in the most fatalities.
    - snowwindwaves 9y ago
      Using the battery pack enclosure as a structural member instead of bolting batteries on to the same old frame or body was an innovation.
    - fma 9y ago
      Volkswagen Beetle is a classic with a frunk.
  - Vik1ng 9y ago
    It just has an acceptable in the IIHS small overlap crash test
- wellboy 9y ago
  Be double as good in almost every metric, range, speed, acceleration, comfort, brand recognition, design. Not sure what you see as revolutionary, but 10% improvement is evolutionary, maybe 30%, but 100% improvement is a new level.
  - gamblor956 9y ago
    range, speed, acceleration, comfort, brand recognition, design. On range, Tesla Model 3 only has a slight advantage over the Chevy Bolt, 20 miles based on third party test. Tesla isn't remotely close to 2x on range unless you're comparing the Model 3 to a first generation Nissan Leaf. Speed? Definitely not 2x, unless you're actually claiming Model 3 can do >180 mph (Bolt is rated a 91 mph max speed, and the first generation Nissan Leaf had a max speed of 93 mph. Model 3 is rated at 140mph max speed). Acceleration? Chevy Bolt is 7 seconds 0-60, while the Tesla Model 3 is 4.6 seconds. Not 2x. Comfort? Almost tied. Advantage? Bolt, considering that the most expensive Bolt (with all options) is still several thousand $$$ cheaper than the cheapest Model 3 available for the foreseeable future. Brand recognition? Depends on where you are. Everyone has heard of Chevrolet. Not everyone has heard of Tesla. Design? Depends on what you're looking at. If you mean just the lines of the vehicle as they were intended, sure, the Tesla wins. If you mean the lines of the vehicle as put into production, the Bolt wins, hands down. The Model 3 is already infamous for misaligned panels, large gaps in the exterior between panels, misaligned window panes, misaligned handles, etc, and these are all signs of poor design failing to account for manufacturing tolerances. You won't find a Bolt with any of those problems. So...basically what it boils down to is that Tesla is evolutionary at best in some categories and a step backwards in others.
    - fumar 9y ago
      I agree with you the Bolt is a good value. I am concerned with your comparisons. A car that accelerates 0-60 in 4.6 seconds is in a different league than a car that does it in 7 seconds. Sure it is not a 2x increase, but these aren't computer specs. Using 2x as a baseline of comparison is unfair given these machines are used for transportation. Perhaps only in range would it be fair. Tesla's branding tactics are no different than the other auto manufacturers. I don't think you can ding them on that. They all play to an audience or niche, it can be heavy handed. It can be GM talking about trucks and ruggedness or BMW talking about performance machines. Tesla focuses on "innovation." It can all be a bit cheesy. I am waiting for the rest of the autos to catch up and deliver their flagship electric cars. I think consumers will wise up and choose the car that provides the right value for their $. Porsche will price their upcoming electric sports car cheaper than the Tesla roadster...I would take the Porsche.
- pbreit 9y ago
  Battery operated cars, battery operation ecosystem, over the air updates, over the update that enabled auto-pilot, radically redesigned internal controls, direct sales, no haggle pricing.
  - beamatronic 9y ago
    Let’s be honest and pare this down to battery pack technology, over-the-air updates/always connected to the Internet and direct sales.
    - fma 9y ago
      I wouldn't even give Tesla the credit of revolutionary for connected cars. On Star has been in GM vehicles for a very long time (1996 says Wikipedia), offering various levels of connectivity.
  - Fins 9y ago
    No-haggle pricing -- Saturn. Battery vehicles -- EV-1 (granted, there were many even before that). Enabling autopilot -- better not go there... If you look closely, there is very little that's actually innovative about Tesla (and what is is mostly Panasonic battery tech).
- slyn 9y ago
  We might be able to sit in our seats and say that anything they’re doing as a company is a technology that has existed for many years, but for many years people were saying that the tech wasn’t feasible on a large scale for xyz reasons. GM could’ve made an electric vehicle (and they since have) but they weren’t going to make a fast charging network (and they aren’t going to). It was never going to be realistic to have one without the other, so Tesla did both. Now the market exists where there are companies doing the infrastructure and companies doing the cars. I’d argue that jumpstarting the market was revolutionary. I’d also contend that we’re seeing the beginnings of the another market jumpstart from Tesla in the pairing of battery storage with renewables.
- outworlder 9y ago
  I have a feeling it will not matter, and anything people can name will be shot down. If you disregard labels, Tesla was the first company to place this particular, very risky, bet. And it has paid off. Electric cars were considered either not practical, or not desirable. Tesla made a car which was both. If you disregard that, than fine, nothing was revolutionary. But then, by that standard, nothing is revolutionary.
- kakwa_ 9y ago
  Market an electric luxury sedan first? Before Tesla, EV were seen as clunky, not very convenient and half baked conversion from already existing gas vehicles chassis. A few people were buying them because "hey, I'm saving the planet" (not really, this sweet electricity is still coming from fossil fuel). But Tesla made EV kind of sexy, partly due to Musk other adventures that made people dream, mainly SpaceX, but also because of the "sporty" feel of the Model S and the "high tech" image of it. Frankly, personally, I'm a bit tired of all the "praise Musk like a god" thing. The guy is refreshing in a world where everything must summarized in Excel and companies seems to be managed more by accountants rather than technology. The guy is interesting as it has made the public aware of new possibilities regarding cars. He has unlocked something. But should we deify him for that? no. EV are still under conventional cars in term of autonomy, cost and reloading time. And personally, I think that cars are kind of a waist of resources to begin with: it costs a ton, it consumes a lot of energy per passenger and it's a mostly underused complex piece of machinery (few hours of commute every day at most). Nowadays, I kind of wish for Tesla to crash and burn. I know it's irrational (and I will probably be down voted for it), but at least, it will shut-up the other irrational part of the audience praising Musk constantly and without reserve.
- nardi 9y ago
  There were smartphones before the iPhone, but they all sucked. Then Apple made a good one (with a touchscreen), and immediately the next year, every smartphone looked exactly like the iPhone. They changed the market basically overnight. But did they invent the smartphone? No. Same deal with Tesla, if they can get Model 3 production up.
- jernfrost 9y ago
  Nothing in the car industry was EVER revolutionary. Cars have naturally progressed from earlier related technologies. In fact I would claim most technologies are like that. Hence to call something revolutionary, it makes most sense to talk about who has made a radical improvement. It is kind of like how there were smart phones before iPhone, but iPhone was such a radical improvement that it represented a revolution. In much the same manner, the Model S was a revolution, similar to iPhone. It pushed electric cars significantly forward and set the bar for what an electric car could be.
- ggg9990 9y ago
  The entire car is revolutionary. It’s like the iPhone - there wasn’t a new scientific discovery behind the iPhone but the sum of the product was clearly revolutionary. That much was obvious to anyone who picked it up in 2007 and had even the slightest ability to imagine a mass-market user.
maxerickson 9y ago
What do you think the Model 3 shows when compared to the Bolt? The Tesla obviously has better mind share at the moment, but various aspects of the vehicles are pretty comparable (even though they aren't really aimed at the same market segments): https://www.consumerreports.org/tesla-model-3/tesla-model-3-vs-chevrolet-bolt-ev-tale-of-the-tape/ https://www.consumerreports.org/tesla-model-3/tesla-model-3-... I don't see a generational advantage for Tesla when I compare the 2. I see Tesla having a very short amount of time to match quality levels and production volume.
- CodeWriter23 9y ago
  > What do you think the Model 3 shows when compared to the Bolt? An additional 72 mile range for the Model 3. And a standard compact car form factor to Chevy’s sub sub-compact. I’m sure that yields some shoulder room and other comfort benefits.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    The greater range costs $15,000, it is mostly coming from a bigger battery (Tesla does have a modest edge on range/kW-h). The form factor is also not a technical thing, it's the sort of thing I was trying to head off with they aren't really aimed at the same market segments. I think it is fair to say that the Model 3 is the more desired car, but that's not the same as demonstrating a big lead in electric platforms.
    - beamatronic 9y ago
      That’s right. No one else is trying to make a sexy electric car at a low price.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > No one else is trying to make a sexy electric car at a low price. Whatever Tesla is trying, they aren't actually delivering that, either. The model 3 may have curb appeal (the interior is another story) but it certainly isn't at a low price (the base price is above the median total—options and taxes included—transaction price of a US new car purchase.)
maxxxxx 9y ago
Other than the electric engine I don't see much revolution in a Tesla. What revolutionary is in a Tesla? Touch screens?

gamblor956 9y ago

Name one thing that Tesla has done that is revolutionary rather than evolutionary? (Working features only, otherwise you're comparing it to a very long list of revolutionary features being researched by mainstream auto companies)

matt4077 9y ago
Being cool. People don’t like to acknowledge this as an accomplishment. But the idea, and successful implementation, of selling an electric car that isn’t what a soy patty on gluten-free bread is to a burger was quite a revolution.
- gamblor956 9y ago
  Being cool is a matter of marketing, not engineering. The Prius design is beloved in Japan, where it was designed. The Bolt is considered extremely stylish for a compact sedan/hatchback. And both are considered cool within their target markets.
  - nugga 9y ago
    Tesla doesn't advertise (yet). They have a huge word of mouth / Elon Musk cult following. He must be doing something right for getting all that loyalty and hype. A few hundred thousand preorders with 1000 bux down is something.
    - gamblor956 9y ago
      Tesla has had billboards all over LA and SF for many years now, so your definition of advertising must be very different from the normal definition. Any company following GAAP (standard accounting practices) would also consider stunts like the "flame thrower" and the Roadster in space to be marketing activities. The only marketing activity Tesla hasn't actually used is paid TV commercials, unless you include Hulu or online streaming, in which case... Tesla has actually used every mode of advertising commonly used by its competitors. The fact that Tesla doesn't actually categorize its marketing activities as marketing in its financial statements just means that Tesla isn't following GAAP.
    - bjl 9y ago
      What are you taking about? Tesla spends millions a quarter on advertising and PR.
    - rgbrenner 9y ago
      I've seen the articles where you got that from... But that's BS. Just read their 10K (this is from Q4 2017): Marketing, promotional and advertising costs are expensed as incurred and are included as an element of selling, general and administrative expense in the consolidated statement of operations. We incurred marketing, promotional and advertising costs of $66.5 million, $48.0 million and $58.3 million in the years ended December 31, 2017, 2016 and 2015, respectively. http://ir.tesla.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1564590-18-2956 http://ir.tesla.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1564590-18-2956
      - nugga 9y ago
        Fair enough, so they put some marketing stuff as expenses and might have some visibility in the real world, but it also says in the same document: Historically, we have been able to generate significant media coverage of our company and our vehicles, and we believe we will continue to do so. To date, for vehicle sales, media coverage and word of mouth have been the primary drivers of our sales leads and have helped us achieve sales without traditional advertising and at relatively low marketing costs.
  - Theodores 9y ago
    Not really, the GM product is a loss leader, well, follower, the lose $9k on each one.
  - ericd 9y ago
    Who is the Bolt considered extremely stylish by? To me, at least, it screams "econo-box". Has it won some design awards or something?
maneesh 9y ago
Their method of redesigning the frame / car that led to revolutionary results in safety: https://www.tesla.com/it_IT/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best-safety-rating-any-car-ever-tested%20 https://www.tesla.com/it_IT/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best...
- gamblor956 9y ago
  Try again. Frunks were around before Tesla...as far back as the 1960s. This is just an evolutionary iteration of modern cars, which are design to absorb crash energy in a crash by crumpling. And even Tesla admits that its higher rates are almost entirely due to the frunk providing a larger crumple zone. Also, Tesla is known to misrepresent in it's PR releases. See https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/06/insurance-institute-for-highway-safety-tests-tesla-model-s.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/06/insurance-institute-for-high..., in which the IIHS notes that Tesla only received an "acceptable" for the type of crash that actually results in the most fatalities.
  - snowwindwaves 9y ago
    Using the battery pack enclosure as a structural member instead of bolting batteries on to the same old frame or body was an innovation.
  - fma 9y ago
    Volkswagen Beetle is a classic with a frunk.
- Vik1ng 9y ago
  It just has an acceptable in the IIHS small overlap crash test
wellboy 9y ago
Be double as good in almost every metric, range, speed, acceleration, comfort, brand recognition, design. Not sure what you see as revolutionary, but 10% improvement is evolutionary, maybe 30%, but 100% improvement is a new level.
- gamblor956 9y ago
  range, speed, acceleration, comfort, brand recognition, design. On range, Tesla Model 3 only has a slight advantage over the Chevy Bolt, 20 miles based on third party test. Tesla isn't remotely close to 2x on range unless you're comparing the Model 3 to a first generation Nissan Leaf. Speed? Definitely not 2x, unless you're actually claiming Model 3 can do >180 mph (Bolt is rated a 91 mph max speed, and the first generation Nissan Leaf had a max speed of 93 mph. Model 3 is rated at 140mph max speed). Acceleration? Chevy Bolt is 7 seconds 0-60, while the Tesla Model 3 is 4.6 seconds. Not 2x. Comfort? Almost tied. Advantage? Bolt, considering that the most expensive Bolt (with all options) is still several thousand $$$ cheaper than the cheapest Model 3 available for the foreseeable future. Brand recognition? Depends on where you are. Everyone has heard of Chevrolet. Not everyone has heard of Tesla. Design? Depends on what you're looking at. If you mean just the lines of the vehicle as they were intended, sure, the Tesla wins. If you mean the lines of the vehicle as put into production, the Bolt wins, hands down. The Model 3 is already infamous for misaligned panels, large gaps in the exterior between panels, misaligned window panes, misaligned handles, etc, and these are all signs of poor design failing to account for manufacturing tolerances. You won't find a Bolt with any of those problems. So...basically what it boils down to is that Tesla is evolutionary at best in some categories and a step backwards in others.
  - fumar 9y ago
    I agree with you the Bolt is a good value. I am concerned with your comparisons. A car that accelerates 0-60 in 4.6 seconds is in a different league than a car that does it in 7 seconds. Sure it is not a 2x increase, but these aren't computer specs. Using 2x as a baseline of comparison is unfair given these machines are used for transportation. Perhaps only in range would it be fair. Tesla's branding tactics are no different than the other auto manufacturers. I don't think you can ding them on that. They all play to an audience or niche, it can be heavy handed. It can be GM talking about trucks and ruggedness or BMW talking about performance machines. Tesla focuses on "innovation." It can all be a bit cheesy. I am waiting for the rest of the autos to catch up and deliver their flagship electric cars. I think consumers will wise up and choose the car that provides the right value for their $. Porsche will price their upcoming electric sports car cheaper than the Tesla roadster...I would take the Porsche.
pbreit 9y ago
Battery operated cars, battery operation ecosystem, over the air updates, over the update that enabled auto-pilot, radically redesigned internal controls, direct sales, no haggle pricing.
- beamatronic 9y ago
  Let’s be honest and pare this down to battery pack technology, over-the-air updates/always connected to the Internet and direct sales.
  - fma 9y ago
    I wouldn't even give Tesla the credit of revolutionary for connected cars. On Star has been in GM vehicles for a very long time (1996 says Wikipedia), offering various levels of connectivity.
- Fins 9y ago
  No-haggle pricing -- Saturn. Battery vehicles -- EV-1 (granted, there were many even before that). Enabling autopilot -- better not go there... If you look closely, there is very little that's actually innovative about Tesla (and what is is mostly Panasonic battery tech).
slyn 9y ago
We might be able to sit in our seats and say that anything they’re doing as a company is a technology that has existed for many years, but for many years people were saying that the tech wasn’t feasible on a large scale for xyz reasons. GM could’ve made an electric vehicle (and they since have) but they weren’t going to make a fast charging network (and they aren’t going to). It was never going to be realistic to have one without the other, so Tesla did both. Now the market exists where there are companies doing the infrastructure and companies doing the cars. I’d argue that jumpstarting the market was revolutionary. I’d also contend that we’re seeing the beginnings of the another market jumpstart from Tesla in the pairing of battery storage with renewables.
outworlder 9y ago
I have a feeling it will not matter, and anything people can name will be shot down. If you disregard labels, Tesla was the first company to place this particular, very risky, bet. And it has paid off. Electric cars were considered either not practical, or not desirable. Tesla made a car which was both. If you disregard that, than fine, nothing was revolutionary. But then, by that standard, nothing is revolutionary.
kakwa_ 9y ago
Market an electric luxury sedan first? Before Tesla, EV were seen as clunky, not very convenient and half baked conversion from already existing gas vehicles chassis. A few people were buying them because "hey, I'm saving the planet" (not really, this sweet electricity is still coming from fossil fuel). But Tesla made EV kind of sexy, partly due to Musk other adventures that made people dream, mainly SpaceX, but also because of the "sporty" feel of the Model S and the "high tech" image of it. Frankly, personally, I'm a bit tired of all the "praise Musk like a god" thing. The guy is refreshing in a world where everything must summarized in Excel and companies seems to be managed more by accountants rather than technology. The guy is interesting as it has made the public aware of new possibilities regarding cars. He has unlocked something. But should we deify him for that? no. EV are still under conventional cars in term of autonomy, cost and reloading time. And personally, I think that cars are kind of a waist of resources to begin with: it costs a ton, it consumes a lot of energy per passenger and it's a mostly underused complex piece of machinery (few hours of commute every day at most). Nowadays, I kind of wish for Tesla to crash and burn. I know it's irrational (and I will probably be down voted for it), but at least, it will shut-up the other irrational part of the audience praising Musk constantly and without reserve.
nardi 9y ago
There were smartphones before the iPhone, but they all sucked. Then Apple made a good one (with a touchscreen), and immediately the next year, every smartphone looked exactly like the iPhone. They changed the market basically overnight. But did they invent the smartphone? No. Same deal with Tesla, if they can get Model 3 production up.
jernfrost 9y ago
Nothing in the car industry was EVER revolutionary. Cars have naturally progressed from earlier related technologies. In fact I would claim most technologies are like that. Hence to call something revolutionary, it makes most sense to talk about who has made a radical improvement. It is kind of like how there were smart phones before iPhone, but iPhone was such a radical improvement that it represented a revolution. In much the same manner, the Model S was a revolution, similar to iPhone. It pushed electric cars significantly forward and set the bar for what an electric car could be.
ggg9990 9y ago
The entire car is revolutionary. It’s like the iPhone - there wasn’t a new scientific discovery behind the iPhone but the sum of the product was clearly revolutionary. That much was obvious to anyone who picked it up in 2007 and had even the slightest ability to imagine a mass-market user.

maxerickson 9y ago

What do you think the Model 3 shows when compared to the Bolt? The Tesla obviously has better mind share at the moment, but various aspects of the vehicles are pretty comparable (even though they aren't really aimed at the same market segments): https://www.consumerreports.org/tesla-model-3/tesla-model-3-vs-chevrolet-bolt-ev-tale-of-the-tape/ https://www.consumerreports.org/tesla-model-3/tesla-model-3-... I don't see a generational advantage for Tesla when I compare the 2. I see Tesla having a very short amount of time to match quality levels and production volume.

CodeWriter23 9y ago
> What do you think the Model 3 shows when compared to the Bolt? An additional 72 mile range for the Model 3. And a standard compact car form factor to Chevy’s sub sub-compact. I’m sure that yields some shoulder room and other comfort benefits.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  The greater range costs $15,000, it is mostly coming from a bigger battery (Tesla does have a modest edge on range/kW-h). The form factor is also not a technical thing, it's the sort of thing I was trying to head off with they aren't really aimed at the same market segments. I think it is fair to say that the Model 3 is the more desired car, but that's not the same as demonstrating a big lead in electric platforms.
  - beamatronic 9y ago
    That’s right. No one else is trying to make a sexy electric car at a low price.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > No one else is trying to make a sexy electric car at a low price. Whatever Tesla is trying, they aren't actually delivering that, either. The model 3 may have curb appeal (the interior is another story) but it certainly isn't at a low price (the base price is above the median total—options and taxes included—transaction price of a US new car purchase.)

maxxxxx 9y ago

Other than the electric engine I don't see much revolution in a Tesla. What revolutionary is in a Tesla? Touch screens?