4 ms·

People say everyone was doping. Lance, Floyd, Tyler, Levi, Big George, etc. A crime without victim - everyone did it. I never saw anyone claiming Chris Horner

People say everyone was doping. Lance, Floyd, Tyler, Levi, Big George, etc. A crime without victim - everyone did it. I never saw anyone claiming Chris Horner was doping. He was not competitive internationally until his last years on the circuit when doping use somewhat subsided. Chris Horner is the victim. In a better world it's Chris Horner who won Tour de France.

kurtisc 8y ago
Regardless, the people on TV aren't the only competitors. The vast majority are innocent amateurs who don't want to have to dope to be competitive.
- walrus01 8y ago
  the average cat3 racer has nowhere near the financial resources to engage in highly advanced technical doping methods.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    You can get epo and steroids relatively cheaply if you want to. You don't need highly advanced technical methods to get an advantage. When I look around my gym I and look at the physique of the guys training then either people have become more muscular in the last 20 years or they are on something. I think it's the latter.
    - walrus01 8y ago
      https://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test https://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test Sure, you can get it. Where the "Advanced" part comes in is passing cat1 level blood and urine tests taken at random times in random places.
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        At what level are they starting this kind of test? I assume this is very expensive so it's probably not at the lower level.
        nl 8y ago
        US Cycling tests at the amateur and masters level. It’s not expensive once the infrastructure exists, the marginal cost is pretty small.
walrus01 8y ago
While we're listing names: I am disappointed that Ekimov and Hincapie have not been prosecuted for the US Postal/Discovery doping program. They were Armstrong's senior, experienced right-hand men and ruled as bosses over the junior domestiques.
- nl 8y ago
  I believe they got immunity in return for testimony.
jumpinalake 8y ago
There are many victims including all those who lost a role model.
neuro_imager 8y ago
Yeah everyone is "clean" until they fail a drug test. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. And drug tests pretty much suck.
stevenwoo 8y ago
Chris Horner was competitive in races when he was 41. That was unheard of in modern bicycle racing until Valverde, a convicted doper now racing after his suspension, continued to race. This is all after the invention of EPO so that could be a coincidence or not. In the redacted documents from the USADA investigation of Lance Armstrong, several people are not identified still, rider 15 is never identified but his name is redacted out. Because they used a font that is not uniform width per character, there has been a lot of speculation over the years that rider 15 is Chris Horner because a.) his name fits the redacted space, and the parts of the characters USADA did not redact match the letters in Chris Horner, b.) the background described for rider 15 match Chris Horner. Many people came to this conclusion separately. Someone who actually didn't dope and raced against Horner in his first prime wrote a lot about it - a sample http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/24/unbelievable-chris-horner/ http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/24/unbelievable-chris-horner...
- nl 8y ago
  It's outrageous that anyone could think Chris Horner is a victim. See my other reply as well, but this is just completely off the charts. There were lots of victims to various degree of the Armstrong era. Even on USPS people like Frankie Andreu were to some degree victims. Chris Horner wasn't one of them.
jdietrich 8y ago
I once read a proposal for a "monument to the unknown champion" - a statue honouring great riders whose names are unknown to us because they refused to dope.
nl 8y ago
Chris Horner?????? Chris "Redacted" Horner[1]? The guy who "won" the Vuelta at 41? The guy who joined pro-continental teams only to have their race invitations withdrawn? You can bet there are a lot of claims that Horner was a doper, and many claims that he was one of the worst. Maybe Jonathan Vaughters's Tweet about him shows the utter contempt the pro peleton feels for Horner. Maybe Francisco Mancebo is hated more on the US circuit, but probably not. [1] https://cyclingtips.com/2018/04/commentary-a-partially-subjective-ranking-of-cyclings-dopers-loved-and-hated/ https://cyclingtips.com/2018/04/commentary-a-partially-subje... (read the comments if the "redacted" doesn't make sense, or Google "Rider 15")

kurtisc 8y ago

Regardless, the people on TV aren't the only competitors. The vast majority are innocent amateurs who don't want to have to dope to be competitive.

walrus01 8y ago
the average cat3 racer has nowhere near the financial resources to engage in highly advanced technical doping methods.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  You can get epo and steroids relatively cheaply if you want to. You don't need highly advanced technical methods to get an advantage. When I look around my gym I and look at the physique of the guys training then either people have become more muscular in the last 20 years or they are on something. I think it's the latter.
  - walrus01 8y ago
    https://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test https://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test Sure, you can get it. Where the "Advanced" part comes in is passing cat1 level blood and urine tests taken at random times in random places.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      At what level are they starting this kind of test? I assume this is very expensive so it's probably not at the lower level.
      - nl 8y ago
        US Cycling tests at the amateur and masters level. It’s not expensive once the infrastructure exists, the marginal cost is pretty small.

walrus01 8y ago

While we're listing names: I am disappointed that Ekimov and Hincapie have not been prosecuted for the US Postal/Discovery doping program. They were Armstrong's senior, experienced right-hand men and ruled as bosses over the junior domestiques.

nl 8y ago
I believe they got immunity in return for testimony.

jumpinalake 8y ago

There are many victims including all those who lost a role model.

neuro_imager 8y ago

Yeah everyone is "clean" until they fail a drug test. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. And drug tests pretty much suck.

stevenwoo 8y ago

Chris Horner was competitive in races when he was 41. That was unheard of in modern bicycle racing until Valverde, a convicted doper now racing after his suspension, continued to race. This is all after the invention of EPO so that could be a coincidence or not. In the redacted documents from the USADA investigation of Lance Armstrong, several people are not identified still, rider 15 is never identified but his name is redacted out. Because they used a font that is not uniform width per character, there has been a lot of speculation over the years that rider 15 is Chris Horner because a.) his name fits the redacted space, and the parts of the characters USADA did not redact match the letters in Chris Horner, b.) the background described for rider 15 match Chris Horner. Many people came to this conclusion separately. Someone who actually didn't dope and raced against Horner in his first prime wrote a lot about it - a sample http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/24/unbelievable-chris-horner/ http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/24/unbelievable-chris-horner...

nl 8y ago
It's outrageous that anyone could think Chris Horner is a victim. See my other reply as well, but this is just completely off the charts. There were lots of victims to various degree of the Armstrong era. Even on USPS people like Frankie Andreu were to some degree victims. Chris Horner wasn't one of them.

jdietrich 8y ago

I once read a proposal for a "monument to the unknown champion" - a statue honouring great riders whose names are unknown to us because they refused to dope.

nl 8y ago

Chris Horner?????? Chris "Redacted" Horner[1]? The guy who "won" the Vuelta at 41? The guy who joined pro-continental teams only to have their race invitations withdrawn? You can bet there are a lot of claims that Horner was a doper, and many claims that he was one of the worst. Maybe Jonathan Vaughters's Tweet about him shows the utter contempt the pro peleton feels for Horner. Maybe Francisco Mancebo is hated more on the US circuit, but probably not. [1] https://cyclingtips.com/2018/04/commentary-a-partially-subjective-ranking-of-cyclings-dopers-loved-and-hated/ https://cyclingtips.com/2018/04/commentary-a-partially-subje... (read the comments if the "redacted" doesn't make sense, or Google "Rider 15")