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The Man Who Brought Down Lance Armstrong
- dredmorbius 8y ago#ISavedYouAClick: Floyd Landis.
- Theodores 8y agoSo Floyd also ended up being part of the opioid crisis and found salvation through cannabis. Quite a change in career and interesting how he has no interest in that first career. It is a curious law that he used and fortunate that the sponsor happened to be the government, had they had another sponsor, e.g. AmGen, then they would not have had this legal route.
- reallymental 8y agoEveryone just acted like this was a huge scandal. One guy on roids beat all the other guys on roids. Plain and simple. He just had to be made an example of, by people he had pissed off. And he was brought down by his own disgruntled teammates. Not by a + test. It's widely known that athletes at the highest level have encountered people who use roids. If you just don't inject yourself to the gills with it and cycle out, you stand a good chance of passing the test. You can use it and compete with the rest, or you can choose to not use it and watch the others run past you in a pace you thought was supernatural. Bikers used to drink alcohol and climb the hills in the Tour all the time. Is alcohol not performance enhancing when it dulls the throbbing pain in your legs? Bring those cyclists down too. Then you'll have everyone's support. Make a league for people who want to use roids, and for the ones who don't. It'll multiply your revenue 2x, organisers.
- reallymental 8y agowould the downvoters care to point out their reasoning?
- cup-of-tea 8y agoI didn't downvote (I don't do that because it creates echo chambers), but there is more to it than what you wrote. The article linked gives you some clues but essentially Armstrong was the guy driving the doping. Many other guys followed his lead so that they could compete and that was certainly the wrong thing to do but many of us do similar things in our workplaces.
- reallymental 8y agoThanks for taking the time to reply, I did read the article. I just typed my statement out in haste. I'll reel in that habit.
- _Wintermute 8y ago> Make a league for people who want to use roids, and for the ones who don't. It'll multiply your revenue 2x, organisers. Then you'll have teams pressuring competitors to take more and more drugs, it will become a doping arms race that will end up with serious health risks and deaths. There are already cases in the late 80's, early 90's of cyclists dying in their sleep because their haematocrit levels were so high their blood because too viscous to pump when their heart rate dropped too low. That and your use of the word "roids" and "bikers" makes me think you're not well read up on the subject.
- reallymental 8y agoI see, thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning behind it. My vernacular did highlight the haste at which I typed it out. I should have given my points more thought.
- dredmorbius 8y agoStrawman and inaccurate to boot. Hint: doping in cycling doesn't refer to steroids.
- reallymental 8y ago
- Lio 8y agoFor starters, although Armstrong took testosterone supplements he is mostly accused of using blood doping and EPO. We don't need to "bring down" those who drink alcohol. Drinking alcohol makes you slower not faster. The reason that we don't just let cyclists like Armstrong just use any "supplements" they want in a special league is because they then pressurise their domestiques to do the same. This is what Armstrong tried to do with Frankie Andreu. There are serious long and short term health implications to that, see Tyler Hamilton's description of taking a "bad" blood transfusion in The Secret Race. Many professional cyclists died from "mysterious" night time heart attacks. Some just young neo-pros. Can you really say that they understood the risks of over thickened blood? I think we'd all be happier if Armstrong and the other cheats found a country where it's legal to dope and set up a dirty league there and left the UCI sanctioned events clean. Of course the dopers would then have to contend with a new generation of cheats trying to sneak eBikes into the drugs only league.
- Someone 8y ago”We don't need to "bring down" those who drink alcohol.” For a small set of sports, alcohol was on the banned substance list until last year (https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files...) I think the fact that it makes you more relaxed is (thought to be) performance-enhancing in sports such as archery and shooting. It also was on the list in airplane, motorboat, and car racing. I think that was because of safety concerns. It still may be forbidden in archery in some competitions (https://worldarchery.org/news/153442/statement-wadas-withdrawal-alcohol-banned-substances-list https://worldarchery.org/news/153442/statement-wadas-withdra...)
- walrus01 8y agoChess has an anti doping policy: https://www.fide.com/fide/fide-anti-doping-regulations.html https://www.fide.com/fide/fide-anti-doping-regulations.html though I'm curious what sorts of nootropics or mental alertness drugs a grandmaster level player might be tempted to use. Adderal?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jdietrich 8y agoArmstrong was the chief enforcer of the omerta. He is personally responsible for preventing others from speaking out about doping. He ended the careers of two riders and successfully sued a British newspaper for libel. He dominated the most prestigious event in cycling through the most sophisticated doping operation in the history of the sport. Armstrong (and the flood of sponsorship money he brought with him) fundamentally changed the culture of professional cycling for the worse. Armstrong wasn't alone in doping, but he thoroughly deserved to be made an example of. He posed an existential threat to the sport of cycling and the mistakes that allowed his reign must never be repeated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filippo_Simeoni#Feud_with_Lance_Armstrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filippo_Simeoni#Feud_with_Lanc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons#1999_Tour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons#1999_Tour https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/08/27/lance-armstrong-payback-for-sunday-times-libel-that-wasnt/#2aaddcf11925 https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/08/27/lance-arm...
- Ensorceled 8y agoEverybody was doping. The speed of the tour climbed until 2005 [1] and the related scandals and then dropped and is now hovering around 40kph. Talking to competitive cyclists in the US at the time, everybody knew everyone was doping because it had become physically impossible to do that speed without doping. The top 10 racers were within 0.3% of Armstrong’s time in the 2005 race. They were all doping and several have had their results stricken. Armstrong was the fall guy and object lesson for a general cleanup of the sport because nobody liked him. The rest was hypocrisy. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_France_records_and_statistics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_France_records_and_s...
- watwut 8y agoHe was not just fall guy, he was one of leaders who not just doped, but also pressured others to dope. The pressuring, organizing and leadership part makes it worst then if he would "just doped like everybody else". If we give credit and admiration to leaders when they do good, as is pretty common here, we should give them analogous considerations when they do bad.
- bartread 8y agoAgree. But, regardless, all of this makes it extremely difficult to take cycling seriously as a sport. The fact that it marries this kind of terrible behaviour with an almost priggish, "serious business", attitude does little to help.
- aghillo 8y agoCycling doesn’t seem any worse than other sports, at least in the UK https://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/current-violations/ https://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/current-...
- neuro_imager 8y agoSports do not all benefit equally from PEDs. The requirement to demonstrate high level muscular endurance over such prolonged time periods makes the relative benefits to cyclists very high. This is different to most sports where you are less likely to grossly manipulate the factors contributing to optimal performance with PEDs. Or at least not be able to manipulate them enough to be out of range of talented non-users.
- pimmen 8y agoI wonder how much of this is about money and how much is about prestige. When you look a the figures at WADA, men are caught doping more often than females and women earn much less in sports. In Sweden, the women's national hockey team has to balance a day job with their sport. Now, even the figures by WADA are not perfect (since women require lower levels of the agent to raise performance and might just not get caught) but I feel we should discuss the incentives for doping. I sure as hell don't want teenagers making stupid decisions about their health for the prospect of becoming a millionaire celebrity before they're 30.
- cup-of-tea 8y agoMen have an advantage because they are already men. If women take the same kind of drugs men take they start to become men. Testosterone is the best performance enhancing drug there is.
- garrybelka 8y agoPeople say everyone was doping. Lance, Floyd, Tyler, Levi, Big George, etc. A crime without victim - everyone did it. I never saw anyone claiming Chris Horner was doping. He was not competitive internationally until his last years on the circuit when doping use somewhat subsided. Chris Horner is the victim. In a better world it's Chris Horner who won Tour de France.
- kurtisc 8y agoRegardless, the people on TV aren't the only competitors. The vast majority are innocent amateurs who don't want to have to dope to be competitive.
- walrus01 8y agothe average cat3 racer has nowhere near the financial resources to engage in highly advanced technical doping methods.
- maxxxxx 8y agoYou can get epo and steroids relatively cheaply if you want to. You don't need highly advanced technical methods to get an advantage. When I look around my gym I and look at the physique of the guys training then either people have become more muscular in the last 20 years or they are on something. I think it's the latter.
- walrus01 8y agohttps://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test https://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test Sure, you can get it. Where the "Advanced" part comes in is passing cat1 level blood and urine tests taken at random times in random places.
- maxxxxx 8y agoAt what level are they starting this kind of test? I assume this is very expensive so it's probably not at the lower level.
- walrus01 8y agoLet's not forget that Armstrong enbarked on a spirited campaign to destroy Greg LeMond (and his cycle business licensing his name to Trek), after LeMond brought up all of the issues that were later proven true by Tyler Hamilton. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_LeMond_anti-doping_stance_and_controversies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_LeMond_anti-doping_stan...
- icantdrive55 8y agoI've seen every documentary on Armstrong. I just only wish he didn't use money to quiet up people. That said, I believe his doctor, who said in all likelihood, The Placebo Effect played a huge part in Lance's success. My point is I don't hate him. And alwayss thought Floyd was kind of a weasel. (Lance is the perfect candidate for a big Placebo response? No formal education, besides high school? A very fit, determined young man?)
- I_complete_me 8y agoOver this side of the Atlantic (Europe) there was a book by David Walsh called "Seven Deadly Sins: My Pursuit of Lance Armstrong" where he describes his 12 years pursuing Armstrong and being subject to his Type A bullying character some of it on video.
- walrus01 8y agoIf you can read French, a fascinating book: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.A._Confidentiel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.A._Confidentiel
- auxbuss 8y agoDavid Millar's, Racing Through the Dark[0] also provides some eye-opening background and is a terrific read for anyone remotely interested in cycling. Doping is not a forgiveable offence in professional sport, imo – I advocate for lifetime bans in all sports – but as a reformer Millar has convinced me he is genuine; unlike Armstrong, who is utterly unrepentant. I loath Armstrong for what he has done to the sport of cycling. I'd have a beer with Millar. Two even. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6797630-racing-through-the-dark https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6797630-racing-through-t...