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When I became a monk in Burma, sayalays (sort of like female novitiates) in the monastery were expected to show respect to me, even when they had been there for

When I became a monk in Burma, sayalays (sort of like female novitiates) in the monastery were expected to show respect to me, even when they had been there for 30 years, and I had only been a monk for two weeks. A western monk friend and I discussed it a lot, and we concluded that the rules of the sangha (the monastic community) ensured it would be roughly as sexist as the society around it. See, one of the rules of the vinaya (the ancient monastic code) is that monks are forbidden to grow their own food; all food is a gift from someone. This is an interesting rule, with both good and bad consequences. The beneficial aspect is that it keeps the sangha tied to the lay community; it prevents Theravadan monks from disappearing into the forest with no ties, and is probably crucial to maintaining the existence of a religious order for over two millennia. The detrimental aspect is that it punishes sanghas that are too progressive for their community. Every morning, we would walk out at 6:00 for alms. If the townfolk were pissed at us, we'd have starved. One of the things western buddhist communities have done better is gender-inclusion. In fact, most of my teachers in both zen and theravada have been women.

jschwartzi 9y ago
When I was younger my mom experimented with one of the Buddhist organizations in the United States that follows the Lotus Sutra. From what I recall of that time, in earlier writings Buddha wrote that women could not become enlightened because they were enslaved to their emotions. In the Lotus Sutra he recanted this. If I'm remembering correctly that would explain the sexism in some Buddhist organizations. Or it may be an excuse for perpetuating it.
potatote 9y ago
I grew up in Myanmar until 23 and know what you're talking about. Those 'sayalays' follow a less stricter rules/precepts than a fully-ordained monk. That's why they are expected to pay respect to the male monks. Of course, there is no denying that it's a male-dominant religion, but it is no worse than Catholicism. Buddha, according to the Buddhist legends, appointed his step-mom to be in charge of female monks and they have established their own structure, which follows closely to the one established by male monk's structure (but with slightly less strict rules). As an atheist, I am not going to defend Buddhism (be it Mahayana, Theravada or Tibetan) because they all have major flaws, and aren't very practical--in my opinion--for the modern society. As with most religions, there are good and bad parts in Buddhism and a lot of original teachings by Buddha have been 'tainted' by cultural reasoning (not to mention that even Buddha himself likely got a lot of influence in his philosophy from Hinduism and other mainstream religions in his time). Overall though, I have to say that Buddhism at its core is fairly benign (no eliminate-those-who-don't-believe-in-our-god's-teachings that can be found in old testament or Koran).
- movedx 9y ago
  Interesting comment. I consider my self an atheist too. I've done some reading on Buddhism (online and offline, and at my local temple) to learn more about it. I found that a secular approach to Buddhism ("Secular Buddhism"?) is what works best for me. I don't believe in myth or fairy tales. Nor do I believe in sky Gods or the after life. To me Buddhism, when stripped of all of this, becomes The Four Noble Truths, The Eight Fold Path, and meditation. Or put another way: a simple guide to understanding the mind, our attachment to worldly possessions, life, how to do well by others, and so on. What's your take on this?
  - cko 9y ago
    I was all in on Theravada Buddhism for a while. Until I realized I only believed in a small subset of it - cherry-picking, if you will. Anything that my western sensibilities don’t find appealing, like nagas and devas and stuff I just conveniently filtered away. Cherry picking gets a bad rap in religion as being arbitrary, but in the Kalama Sutta, which to me is an epistemological treatise, Gotama (or some other guru, who really knows?) says: > "So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. Cherry-picking.
    - potatote 9y ago
      This! The Kalama Sutta was broadcast on national TV every night (around 8-9pm) when the military junta was in power. It is their way of saying, "Don't believe in what you heard about our evil doings from outsiders--such as the western propaganda". So almost everyone in the country is aware of that. Ironically speaking, that Sutta really became my go-to philosophy for life. Never believing everything taught by anyone/any being UNTIL it fits my experience/goals. That Sutta, if it was really said by Buddha, is one of the most powerful and most empowering statement he made of all his teachings (in my humble opinion).
rossdavidh 9y ago
There is a Burmese Buddhist community near Austin, Texas, where I live, and most of the monks there are Burmese. There is definitely a tendency for the monks to be slightly more progressive on the idea of women roles in religion, but then these are monks whose Burmese lay supporters live in America. I think one could say generally that, whatever the shortcomings of Western understanding of Buddhism, there has been a non-zero positive influence in the area of a role for women in leading religious communities. By the way, the way I have heard it explained by Burmese monks and Zen priests (in both cases, western) is that there was a tradition of Buddhist nuns from the time of the Buddha (his mother-in-law actually), but this tradition died out about 500 years after his death (in the Therevada tradition anyway). There is a lot of discussion and disagreement within Buddhist communities about the specifics of if/how it should be reinitiated. I am a Buddhist, but not born Buddhist, and I am not a monk, etc. etc.
- spicymaki 9y ago
  That is what I heard as well. I will add that the tradition states that Maha Pajapati (Buddha's step mother/aunt) and Ananda (1st cousin/close disciple) had to convince Buddha that a female order was viable, so this argument goes all the way back to the start. There are nuns in the Zen (Mahayana tradition), so I don't think the line died out through China (not sure it is unbroken though).
JBlue42 9y ago
Off-topic: Are you still a practicing monk? What brought you to HN?

jschwartzi 9y ago

When I was younger my mom experimented with one of the Buddhist organizations in the United States that follows the Lotus Sutra. From what I recall of that time, in earlier writings Buddha wrote that women could not become enlightened because they were enslaved to their emotions. In the Lotus Sutra he recanted this. If I'm remembering correctly that would explain the sexism in some Buddhist organizations. Or it may be an excuse for perpetuating it.

potatote 9y ago

I grew up in Myanmar until 23 and know what you're talking about. Those 'sayalays' follow a less stricter rules/precepts than a fully-ordained monk. That's why they are expected to pay respect to the male monks. Of course, there is no denying that it's a male-dominant religion, but it is no worse than Catholicism. Buddha, according to the Buddhist legends, appointed his step-mom to be in charge of female monks and they have established their own structure, which follows closely to the one established by male monk's structure (but with slightly less strict rules). As an atheist, I am not going to defend Buddhism (be it Mahayana, Theravada or Tibetan) because they all have major flaws, and aren't very practical--in my opinion--for the modern society. As with most religions, there are good and bad parts in Buddhism and a lot of original teachings by Buddha have been 'tainted' by cultural reasoning (not to mention that even Buddha himself likely got a lot of influence in his philosophy from Hinduism and other mainstream religions in his time). Overall though, I have to say that Buddhism at its core is fairly benign (no eliminate-those-who-don't-believe-in-our-god's-teachings that can be found in old testament or Koran).

movedx 9y ago
Interesting comment. I consider my self an atheist too. I've done some reading on Buddhism (online and offline, and at my local temple) to learn more about it. I found that a secular approach to Buddhism ("Secular Buddhism"?) is what works best for me. I don't believe in myth or fairy tales. Nor do I believe in sky Gods or the after life. To me Buddhism, when stripped of all of this, becomes The Four Noble Truths, The Eight Fold Path, and meditation. Or put another way: a simple guide to understanding the mind, our attachment to worldly possessions, life, how to do well by others, and so on. What's your take on this?
- cko 9y ago
  I was all in on Theravada Buddhism for a while. Until I realized I only believed in a small subset of it - cherry-picking, if you will. Anything that my western sensibilities don’t find appealing, like nagas and devas and stuff I just conveniently filtered away. Cherry picking gets a bad rap in religion as being arbitrary, but in the Kalama Sutta, which to me is an epistemological treatise, Gotama (or some other guru, who really knows?) says: > "So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. Cherry-picking.
  - potatote 9y ago
    This! The Kalama Sutta was broadcast on national TV every night (around 8-9pm) when the military junta was in power. It is their way of saying, "Don't believe in what you heard about our evil doings from outsiders--such as the western propaganda". So almost everyone in the country is aware of that. Ironically speaking, that Sutta really became my go-to philosophy for life. Never believing everything taught by anyone/any being UNTIL it fits my experience/goals. That Sutta, if it was really said by Buddha, is one of the most powerful and most empowering statement he made of all his teachings (in my humble opinion).

rossdavidh 9y ago

There is a Burmese Buddhist community near Austin, Texas, where I live, and most of the monks there are Burmese. There is definitely a tendency for the monks to be slightly more progressive on the idea of women roles in religion, but then these are monks whose Burmese lay supporters live in America. I think one could say generally that, whatever the shortcomings of Western understanding of Buddhism, there has been a non-zero positive influence in the area of a role for women in leading religious communities. By the way, the way I have heard it explained by Burmese monks and Zen priests (in both cases, western) is that there was a tradition of Buddhist nuns from the time of the Buddha (his mother-in-law actually), but this tradition died out about 500 years after his death (in the Therevada tradition anyway). There is a lot of discussion and disagreement within Buddhist communities about the specifics of if/how it should be reinitiated. I am a Buddhist, but not born Buddhist, and I am not a monk, etc. etc.

spicymaki 9y ago
That is what I heard as well. I will add that the tradition states that Maha Pajapati (Buddha's step mother/aunt) and Ananda (1st cousin/close disciple) had to convince Buddha that a female order was viable, so this argument goes all the way back to the start. There are nuns in the Zen (Mahayana tradition), so I don't think the line died out through China (not sure it is unbroken though).

JBlue42 9y ago

Off-topic: Are you still a practicing monk? What brought you to HN?