6 ms·

> but it may be the right time to pay for subscriptions and get journalists pay raises. Lol. And you post this on Hacker News where every paywall article has s

> but it may be the right time to pay for subscriptions and get journalists pay raises. Lol. And you post this on Hacker News where every paywall article has some variation of “how can I get around the paywall?” We have a significant number of people on here that think it’s perfectly ok to steal movies, music, books, bypass paywalls yet, somehow lament the loss of “good journalism” while complaining about being tracked, i.e. “being the product,” all while devising ways to steal content, use stuff for “free” or otherwise do everything possible to avoid giving a single cent to a content creator. The HN community is just a tiny slice of humanity, but damnit, you/we are supposed to be the vanguard, yet we actually allow “how do I bypass the paywall” to be allowed. Now imagine the rest of the world bypassing the paywalls. And here we are. If we had comments asking people “how can I more easily shoplift video game consoles?” — would we allow that? /rant

tjoff 9y ago
Well, paywalls are just an insanely bad concept when coupled with a site such as HN. I will not start a subscription on a random site because it was linked on HN. I'm most certainly not even part of their target group. And even if I was, reading 1 article a month on 100 different sites is equally insane. (that said, I don't bypass the paywall, I just don't read it) Personally I'm also not fond of the idea to pay money so that they can track me better, but I know I'm in minority there. We need better ways to pay for content. Preferably one which rewards good content. Today everything is clickbait and the idea to pay for clickbait is extremely off putting to me.
- kristianc 9y ago
  > We need better ways to pay for content. Preferably one which rewards good content. Today everything is clickbait and the idea to pay for clickbait is extremely off putting to me. That's garbage. The NYT isn't clickbait. Neither is WaPo, BBC, NPR, Reuters, AFP and many others. If you want more tech focused content there is The Information, Stratechery, Pando Daily. For nearly all of those there is an easy way to pay, or someone else is paying on your behalf.
  - tjoff 9y ago
    When I wrote that I mostly had in mind sites in my country (Sweden). Sure, a foreign subscription is a good idea for world news but you still need ones that specifically covers local issues.
  - dang 9y ago
    > That's garbage. This breaks the HN guideline against name-calling in arguments. Could you please (re-)read and follow them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Your comment would be fine without that bit.
- matt4077 9y ago
  “Everything is clickbait” only proves that the concept has lost all meaning, not that journalism has somehow changed for the worse. Look how much of the conversation is driven by traditional media outlets. If people really believe we can lose all that and still have a functioning civil society with an informed citizenry, I fear for the future.
  - tjoff 9y ago
    It most certainly has changed for the worse. Because with everything clickbait there is no reason to focus on content since articles without it "sell" just as well. And since good content doesn't bring money anymore why bother? As a user it becomes much harder to find good content, which reduces the usefulness and desire to read and continue the subscription.
    - mijamo 9y ago
      I disagree strongly. Shocking headings were already common in the 1800s. If anything the quality and diversity has gone up in the last years.
      - tjoff 9y ago
        Sure, front page headlines has always been subject to this. But with the internet everything is the front page, and stories only get promoted based on how clickbaity they are. I can look past the top headline, this is several orders of magnitude worse. Paywalls made this much worse, now every single link has to sell you a subscription. Which is bad enough if you don't pay for a subscription but absolutely devastating if you actually paid for content that only serves as bait for people that don't.
      - gepi79 9y ago
        Thanks to the internet.
bostik 9y ago
> If we had comments asking people “how can I more easily shoplift video game consoles?” — would we allow that? Well.. Let's play devil's advocate and see how far we can go. You're asking a question that could be deconstructed into a few different challenges: * psychology and ways to subvert (or bias) human observation * ways to avoid automatic surveillance (read: CCTV, facial recognition, etc.) * logistics * hitting large, faceless corporations where it hurts: on the bottom line As to their application to Hacker News frequents' interests? Subverting or cheating human observation skills: stage magicians. Avoiding automatic surveillance: very much in tune with HN. Hacker culture at its core. Logistics: again, in tune with HN. (Flexport, anyone?) Hitting faceless corporations in their bottom line? And underneath that all, there is the common curiosity. This is a technical challenge. How do I win?
- WhitneyLand 9y ago
  I’d agree you could deconstruct the comment in such a way, but that doesn’t speak to its merit. Couldn’t your own comment also be deconstructed? Every valid irony or hypocrisy has an underlying mechanism by which it operates yet implies something no less ironic or hypocritical?
krapp 9y ago
To be fair, workarounds for paywalls are usually provided by the site to maintain their SEO, so nothing is being "stolen" in that case.
contoraria 9y ago
I'm being charged for downloading a TV series. I'm shy of proposing the counter offer to watch ten minutes of selected commercials as settlement.
- dd36 9y ago
  Really? By who?
  - contoraria 9y ago
    By lawyers of the rights owner. I might be misrepresenting the claim, which is for offering distribution via torrent, but that is equally nonsense, as a sharing ratio below 1.0 actually impedes the system.
dbuder 9y ago
>>If we had comments asking people “how can I more easily shoplift video game consoles?” — would we allow that? Send me that link to download a car.

tjoff 9y ago

Well, paywalls are just an insanely bad concept when coupled with a site such as HN. I will not start a subscription on a random site because it was linked on HN. I'm most certainly not even part of their target group. And even if I was, reading 1 article a month on 100 different sites is equally insane. (that said, I don't bypass the paywall, I just don't read it) Personally I'm also not fond of the idea to pay money so that they can track me better, but I know I'm in minority there. We need better ways to pay for content. Preferably one which rewards good content. Today everything is clickbait and the idea to pay for clickbait is extremely off putting to me.

kristianc 9y ago
> We need better ways to pay for content. Preferably one which rewards good content. Today everything is clickbait and the idea to pay for clickbait is extremely off putting to me. That's garbage. The NYT isn't clickbait. Neither is WaPo, BBC, NPR, Reuters, AFP and many others. If you want more tech focused content there is The Information, Stratechery, Pando Daily. For nearly all of those there is an easy way to pay, or someone else is paying on your behalf.
- tjoff 9y ago
  When I wrote that I mostly had in mind sites in my country (Sweden). Sure, a foreign subscription is a good idea for world news but you still need ones that specifically covers local issues.
- dang 9y ago
  > That's garbage. This breaks the HN guideline against name-calling in arguments. Could you please (re-)read and follow them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Your comment would be fine without that bit.
matt4077 9y ago
“Everything is clickbait” only proves that the concept has lost all meaning, not that journalism has somehow changed for the worse. Look how much of the conversation is driven by traditional media outlets. If people really believe we can lose all that and still have a functioning civil society with an informed citizenry, I fear for the future.
- tjoff 9y ago
  It most certainly has changed for the worse. Because with everything clickbait there is no reason to focus on content since articles without it "sell" just as well. And since good content doesn't bring money anymore why bother? As a user it becomes much harder to find good content, which reduces the usefulness and desire to read and continue the subscription.
  - mijamo 9y ago
    I disagree strongly. Shocking headings were already common in the 1800s. If anything the quality and diversity has gone up in the last years.
    - tjoff 9y ago
      Sure, front page headlines has always been subject to this. But with the internet everything is the front page, and stories only get promoted based on how clickbaity they are. I can look past the top headline, this is several orders of magnitude worse. Paywalls made this much worse, now every single link has to sell you a subscription. Which is bad enough if you don't pay for a subscription but absolutely devastating if you actually paid for content that only serves as bait for people that don't.
    - gepi79 9y ago
      Thanks to the internet.

bostik 9y ago

> If we had comments asking people “how can I more easily shoplift video game consoles?” — would we allow that? Well.. Let's play devil's advocate and see how far we can go. You're asking a question that could be deconstructed into a few different challenges: * psychology and ways to subvert (or bias) human observation * ways to avoid automatic surveillance (read: CCTV, facial recognition, etc.) * logistics * hitting large, faceless corporations where it hurts: on the bottom line As to their application to Hacker News frequents' interests? Subverting or cheating human observation skills: stage magicians. Avoiding automatic surveillance: very much in tune with HN. Hacker culture at its core. Logistics: again, in tune with HN. (Flexport, anyone?) Hitting faceless corporations in their bottom line? And underneath that all, there is the common curiosity. This is a technical challenge. How do I win?

WhitneyLand 9y ago
I’d agree you could deconstruct the comment in such a way, but that doesn’t speak to its merit. Couldn’t your own comment also be deconstructed? Every valid irony or hypocrisy has an underlying mechanism by which it operates yet implies something no less ironic or hypocritical?

krapp 9y ago

To be fair, workarounds for paywalls are usually provided by the site to maintain their SEO, so nothing is being "stolen" in that case.

contoraria 9y ago

I'm being charged for downloading a TV series. I'm shy of proposing the counter offer to watch ten minutes of selected commercials as settlement.

dd36 9y ago
Really? By who?
- contoraria 9y ago
  By lawyers of the rights owner. I might be misrepresenting the claim, which is for offering distribution via torrent, but that is equally nonsense, as a sharing ratio below 1.0 actually impedes the system.

dbuder 9y ago

>>If we had comments asking people “how can I more easily shoplift video game consoles?” — would we allow that? Send me that link to download a car.