4 ms·

This would be more of a problem in a developed country, right? Sounds like these people are closer to self sufficiently, i.e. farming, foraging, building a roof

This would be more of a problem in a developed country, right? Sounds like these people are closer to self sufficiently, i.e. farming, foraging, building a roof for $40 etc. Where as in developed countries, with the cost of housing and without a job it will be tight. We'd need to helicopter some money, taxed from that automation, IMHO.

ghostcluster 9y ago
but the social incentives are the problem. my understanding is that a lot of the oxycontin epidemic stems from the lack of purpose many people have in their lives without the identity of a job as a role in society. people collecting disability benefits and developing a drug habit as a way of escaping from it temporarily. if we just broaden the handouts from taxes on the large corporate winners, couldn't that make this problem worse? unless there's something else driving it.
- jarfil 9y ago
  Having a job is not the only source of purpose there is. Handing out money may not be an incentive to work harder, but it can let those people look for different ways of achieving satisfaction other than just getting high. People with no money tend to think they need to use any money they get ASAP on fast rewards, only when they have enough money to save do they start thinking about saving any at all. Of course this will hardly work to get those already addicted to change their ways overnight, but some long term financial stability can change the worldview of new generations so they plan for their own future instead of living like they were to die tomorrow.
  - ghostcluster 9y ago
    > Handing out money may not be an incentive to work harder, but it can let those people look for different ways of achieving satisfaction other than just getting high. The problem is we already do this in the US, and we've seen the concurrent rise of a new drug epidemic arise alongside it among the same demographic who are receiving disability.
- Applejinx 9y ago
  People like those writing that headline are the same people telling those on disability benefits that they're shameful sinful people who shouldn't be there: hence, making an escape necessary. Eventually there'll be no truly useful purpose for most people EXCEPT as a functioning market for selecting goods and services, for the benefit of the much smaller percentage that can innovate and run small businesses. Heaping scorn on the majority of people seems like a weird strategy. By far the most effective technique for improving conditions for the small entrepreneur is to dump money into the customer base, even if that customer base won't be making entirely 'good' decisions. Hell, if you don't like them all doing heroin at home in their rooms, build nightclubs. If they are not so broke that they can't come out, they'll start attending your nightclub because there are other things in life besides nodding off on soma.
- opencl 9y ago
  Please, I live in the rust belt and knew several people that have died from this. None of them were unemployed. The government giving out money has nothing to do with it. People living off disability benefits can't afford heroin anyway, they're lucky if they can afford both rent and food.
  - ghostcluster 9y ago
    They can afford prescription painkillers through medicaire and medicaid. If you set aside your personal anecdote and look at the actual data, it is a real thing that is happening in the US: https://www.propublica.org/article/extreme-use-of-painkillers-and-doctor-shopping-plague-medicare https://www.propublica.org/article/extreme-use-of-painkiller...
    - opencl 9y ago
      You were specifically referring to people with no jobs collecting disability benefits. I certainly agree that people obtaining these drugs when they don't need them through insurance/medicare/medicaid is a problem.
      - ghostcluster 9y ago
        medicaid also applies to the working poor, and it has been recently expanded to cover a larger demographic in many states.
        opencl 9y ago
        This isn't a "government giving poor people money" problem, it's a "doctors writing inappropriate prescriptions" problem that is unrelated to the source of funding and clearly happens with private insurance as well. Your post that I was replying to was also very specifically NOT about the working poor, but about jobless people on disability having a "lack of purpose".
simonh 9y ago
The problem for these people is pervasive poverty in their society - it's almost impossible for anyone to succeed because there is so little access to capital for anyone. The problem in developed countries is quite different, there's plenty of capital (in comparison) and many of the people with the ability to make effective use of it are already doing so. The unemployed remnant is in a very different pickle. For example in the US there are far more unfilled jobs than there are unemployed people, it's that they are largely in different places and require skills and experience the unemployed don't have. That's a completely different problem to the one in Kenya, say.
- cousin_it 9y ago
  > far more unfilled jobs than there are unemployed people That can't mean "unfilled jobs at market wage", because jobs at market wage get filled (that's what market wage means). So you're talking about unfilled jobs at below market wage. Of course there'd be tons of those posted. Not sure that comparing it to the number of unemployed people means anything.
  - jon_richards 9y ago
    That's only really true over long time periods. If there are 600k doctor jobs and only 500k doctors, it doesn't matter how much you pay them, you're going to have to wait around 10 years for new students to hear that wages are high and decide to study medicine instead of something else.
    - Noumenon72 9y ago
      That's caused by regulation. There are easily 100,000 people who studied really hard at their nursing degree or pre-med who would make fine GPs if they were allowed to try.
  - simonh 9y ago
    So if all the qualified people for a job are employed, and I want to employ one more, all I have to do is offer more money? All that happens then is that a suitable applicant quits their lesser paid job and takes mine, but at a market level that just shuffles the problem around. There's still an unfilled vacancy. It doesn't matter how much money you offer, the invisible hand of the market can't magically conjure up qualified experienced applicants out of thin air. This is the problem with this kind of blinkered market forces fundamentalism. The market isn't instantaneous, there isn't an endless supply of every product or service depending only on price, to fill every need. The real world is lumpy, and slow, inelastic and constrained.

ghostcluster 9y ago

but the social incentives are the problem. my understanding is that a lot of the oxycontin epidemic stems from the lack of purpose many people have in their lives without the identity of a job as a role in society. people collecting disability benefits and developing a drug habit as a way of escaping from it temporarily. if we just broaden the handouts from taxes on the large corporate winners, couldn't that make this problem worse? unless there's something else driving it.

jarfil 9y ago
Having a job is not the only source of purpose there is. Handing out money may not be an incentive to work harder, but it can let those people look for different ways of achieving satisfaction other than just getting high. People with no money tend to think they need to use any money they get ASAP on fast rewards, only when they have enough money to save do they start thinking about saving any at all. Of course this will hardly work to get those already addicted to change their ways overnight, but some long term financial stability can change the worldview of new generations so they plan for their own future instead of living like they were to die tomorrow.
- ghostcluster 9y ago
  > Handing out money may not be an incentive to work harder, but it can let those people look for different ways of achieving satisfaction other than just getting high. The problem is we already do this in the US, and we've seen the concurrent rise of a new drug epidemic arise alongside it among the same demographic who are receiving disability.
Applejinx 9y ago
People like those writing that headline are the same people telling those on disability benefits that they're shameful sinful people who shouldn't be there: hence, making an escape necessary. Eventually there'll be no truly useful purpose for most people EXCEPT as a functioning market for selecting goods and services, for the benefit of the much smaller percentage that can innovate and run small businesses. Heaping scorn on the majority of people seems like a weird strategy. By far the most effective technique for improving conditions for the small entrepreneur is to dump money into the customer base, even if that customer base won't be making entirely 'good' decisions. Hell, if you don't like them all doing heroin at home in their rooms, build nightclubs. If they are not so broke that they can't come out, they'll start attending your nightclub because there are other things in life besides nodding off on soma.
opencl 9y ago
Please, I live in the rust belt and knew several people that have died from this. None of them were unemployed. The government giving out money has nothing to do with it. People living off disability benefits can't afford heroin anyway, they're lucky if they can afford both rent and food.
- ghostcluster 9y ago
  They can afford prescription painkillers through medicaire and medicaid. If you set aside your personal anecdote and look at the actual data, it is a real thing that is happening in the US: https://www.propublica.org/article/extreme-use-of-painkillers-and-doctor-shopping-plague-medicare https://www.propublica.org/article/extreme-use-of-painkiller...
  - opencl 9y ago
    You were specifically referring to people with no jobs collecting disability benefits. I certainly agree that people obtaining these drugs when they don't need them through insurance/medicare/medicaid is a problem.
    - ghostcluster 9y ago
      medicaid also applies to the working poor, and it has been recently expanded to cover a larger demographic in many states.
      - opencl 9y ago
        This isn't a "government giving poor people money" problem, it's a "doctors writing inappropriate prescriptions" problem that is unrelated to the source of funding and clearly happens with private insurance as well. Your post that I was replying to was also very specifically NOT about the working poor, but about jobless people on disability having a "lack of purpose".

simonh 9y ago

The problem for these people is pervasive poverty in their society - it's almost impossible for anyone to succeed because there is so little access to capital for anyone. The problem in developed countries is quite different, there's plenty of capital (in comparison) and many of the people with the ability to make effective use of it are already doing so. The unemployed remnant is in a very different pickle. For example in the US there are far more unfilled jobs than there are unemployed people, it's that they are largely in different places and require skills and experience the unemployed don't have. That's a completely different problem to the one in Kenya, say.

cousin_it 9y ago
> far more unfilled jobs than there are unemployed people That can't mean "unfilled jobs at market wage", because jobs at market wage get filled (that's what market wage means). So you're talking about unfilled jobs at below market wage. Of course there'd be tons of those posted. Not sure that comparing it to the number of unemployed people means anything.
- jon_richards 9y ago
  That's only really true over long time periods. If there are 600k doctor jobs and only 500k doctors, it doesn't matter how much you pay them, you're going to have to wait around 10 years for new students to hear that wages are high and decide to study medicine instead of something else.
  - Noumenon72 9y ago
    That's caused by regulation. There are easily 100,000 people who studied really hard at their nursing degree or pre-med who would make fine GPs if they were allowed to try.
- simonh 9y ago
  So if all the qualified people for a job are employed, and I want to employ one more, all I have to do is offer more money? All that happens then is that a suitable applicant quits their lesser paid job and takes mine, but at a market level that just shuffles the problem around. There's still an unfilled vacancy. It doesn't matter how much money you offer, the invisible hand of the market can't magically conjure up qualified experienced applicants out of thin air. This is the problem with this kind of blinkered market forces fundamentalism. The market isn't instantaneous, there isn't an endless supply of every product or service depending only on price, to fill every need. The real world is lumpy, and slow, inelastic and constrained.