5 ms·

How much does the US subsidize air travel via FAA, airport subsidies, etc? What about road subsidies? It’s like somehow rail has to be profitable on its own, bu

by op00to 9y ago

How much does the US subsidize air travel via FAA, airport subsidies, etc? What about road subsidies? It’s like somehow rail has to be profitable on its own, but not bus or air.

scyclow 9y ago
I don't know the numbers, but I'd be shocked if air and bus lost as much money per trip as trains. Part of what makes the train appealing for the longer rides is that if you're taking coach half of the car is empty and you know you won't have to sit next to anyone.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  How do you define "loss" in this context?
  - scyclow 9y ago
    Net loss. So, if a ticket costs $10, and it costs the bus an average $12 per passenger, they'd have a $2 loss per passenger.
    - throwawayjava 9y ago
      But in terms of comparisons. That metric is really difficult to define for a roadway or an entire network of airports and the transit systems that connect them to cities.
- justin66 9y ago
  > I don't know the numbers, but I'd be shocked if air and bus lost as much money per trip as trains. Just a thought, but if you're interested in numbers, it's an eye-opener to look at how much money airlines have lost for shareholders, bondholders, and the government via bankruptcies. If passenger rail was ever capable of tearing chunks out of the economy the way the airlines are, it must have been a century ago. From 2011: "The industry in aggregate has lost about $60 billion over the 32 years since deregulation" https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/12/16/143765367/why-airlines-keep-going-bankrupt https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/12/16/143765367/why-... I'm pretty sure airlines are one of those unusual industries in the US (like banking) that have throughout their existence lost more money than they've ever actually generated in profit and have been kept whole by the government. Sorry I don't have any hard figures on that.
  - ComradeTaco 9y ago
    It's also worth considering that the American government has massively subsidized the airline industry. Trillions of dollars in defense spending for aircraft has propped up Boeing and its predecessors during hard times. That spending massively advanced civilian aircraft. Training pilots is another massive cost, which is mitigated by former American military pilots.
- ericd 9y ago
  Keep in mind that bus travel is extremely heavily subsidized in the form of the government handling maintenance of the national highway system
mobilefriendly 9y ago
For other modes of transportation, the government subsidizes the infrastructure but private operators compete on it. For passenger rail the government nationalized most of the system and operates a money-losing monopoly service. Major difference.
- wbl 9y ago
  The rail is not nationalized, the passenger service is.
jessriedel 9y ago
> How much does the US subsidize air travel via FAA, airport subsidies, etc? My plane ticket receipt contains fees for half a dozen various government costs, including airport fees and a general US transportation tax. The FAA is pretty trivial, having a budget of just under $10B out of total American spending on domestic air travel of more than $800B. https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/mission/budget/304496/faa-fy2019cj-budgetfinal508compliant.pdf https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/miss... https://www.statista.com/statistics/207075/domestic-travel-spending-in-the-us-since-2000/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/207075/domestic-travel-s... For all I know air travel may very well be subsidized, but you'll need to point to some serious numbers for it to be anything like the money that Amtrak hemorrhages as a fraction of its revenue.
- Retric 9y ago
  There are a lot of subsidies, but they tend to be individually small. Essential Air Service subsidies Airlines serving rural communities which significantly increases overall ridership. Air Transportation Safety and Stabilization Act as just one example was 10 billion in loan subsidies after 9/11. Another example most Airports are heavily subsidies at least during construction, but so is some airline infrastructure like Indianapolis handing over $300 million for a United Repair shop. The military intentionally creates a huge stream of trained pilots without costing the Airlines a dime. All of this is intentional so no one subsidy seem all that large, and adding up a thousand little pieces take enough effort that nobody complains. PS: "Per passenger EAS subsidy in the 48 contiguous states plus Puerto Rico ranged from $10 to more than $977 per passenger in 2014" but it's only ~300 million per year so no big deal right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_Air_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_Air_Service
- jcranmer 9y ago
  Most of the costs of building and expanding airports are not borne by the airlines themselves but by the public via federal, state, and local governments. Admittedly, most of the cost of railroad infrastructure is not maintained by Amtrak itself, but the Class I railroads are profitable enough to take on major projects like rebuilding their routes to double-stack container clearances themselves.

by op00to 9y ago

How much does the US subsidize air travel via FAA, airport subsidies, etc? What about road subsidies? It’s like somehow rail has to be profitable on its own, but not bus or air.

scyclow 9y ago

I don't know the numbers, but I'd be shocked if air and bus lost as much money per trip as trains. Part of what makes the train appealing for the longer rides is that if you're taking coach half of the car is empty and you know you won't have to sit next to anyone.

throwawayjava 9y ago
How do you define "loss" in this context?
- scyclow 9y ago
  Net loss. So, if a ticket costs $10, and it costs the bus an average $12 per passenger, they'd have a $2 loss per passenger.
  - throwawayjava 9y ago
    But in terms of comparisons. That metric is really difficult to define for a roadway or an entire network of airports and the transit systems that connect them to cities.
justin66 9y ago
> I don't know the numbers, but I'd be shocked if air and bus lost as much money per trip as trains. Just a thought, but if you're interested in numbers, it's an eye-opener to look at how much money airlines have lost for shareholders, bondholders, and the government via bankruptcies. If passenger rail was ever capable of tearing chunks out of the economy the way the airlines are, it must have been a century ago. From 2011: "The industry in aggregate has lost about $60 billion over the 32 years since deregulation" https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/12/16/143765367/why-airlines-keep-going-bankrupt https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/12/16/143765367/why-... I'm pretty sure airlines are one of those unusual industries in the US (like banking) that have throughout their existence lost more money than they've ever actually generated in profit and have been kept whole by the government. Sorry I don't have any hard figures on that.
- ComradeTaco 9y ago
  It's also worth considering that the American government has massively subsidized the airline industry. Trillions of dollars in defense spending for aircraft has propped up Boeing and its predecessors during hard times. That spending massively advanced civilian aircraft. Training pilots is another massive cost, which is mitigated by former American military pilots.
ericd 9y ago
Keep in mind that bus travel is extremely heavily subsidized in the form of the government handling maintenance of the national highway system

mobilefriendly 9y ago

For other modes of transportation, the government subsidizes the infrastructure but private operators compete on it. For passenger rail the government nationalized most of the system and operates a money-losing monopoly service. Major difference.

wbl 9y ago
The rail is not nationalized, the passenger service is.

jessriedel 9y ago

> How much does the US subsidize air travel via FAA, airport subsidies, etc? My plane ticket receipt contains fees for half a dozen various government costs, including airport fees and a general US transportation tax. The FAA is pretty trivial, having a budget of just under $10B out of total American spending on domestic air travel of more than $800B. https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/mission/budget/304496/faa-fy2019cj-budgetfinal508compliant.pdf https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/miss... https://www.statista.com/statistics/207075/domestic-travel-spending-in-the-us-since-2000/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/207075/domestic-travel-s... For all I know air travel may very well be subsidized, but you'll need to point to some serious numbers for it to be anything like the money that Amtrak hemorrhages as a fraction of its revenue.

Retric 9y ago
There are a lot of subsidies, but they tend to be individually small. Essential Air Service subsidies Airlines serving rural communities which significantly increases overall ridership. Air Transportation Safety and Stabilization Act as just one example was 10 billion in loan subsidies after 9/11. Another example most Airports are heavily subsidies at least during construction, but so is some airline infrastructure like Indianapolis handing over $300 million for a United Repair shop. The military intentionally creates a huge stream of trained pilots without costing the Airlines a dime. All of this is intentional so no one subsidy seem all that large, and adding up a thousand little pieces take enough effort that nobody complains. PS: "Per passenger EAS subsidy in the 48 contiguous states plus Puerto Rico ranged from $10 to more than $977 per passenger in 2014" but it's only ~300 million per year so no big deal right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_Air_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_Air_Service
jcranmer 9y ago
Most of the costs of building and expanding airports are not borne by the airlines themselves but by the public via federal, state, and local governments. Admittedly, most of the cost of railroad infrastructure is not maintained by Amtrak itself, but the Class I railroads are profitable enough to take on major projects like rebuilding their routes to double-stack container clearances themselves.