6 ms·

Telecoms have the ability today to add more capacity by increasing tower density.

KirinDave 9y ago
They have the capability, but this intersects with local building codes, zoning laws, and safety standards. It also carries increased costs over time. What's being said here is, "We don't foresee any problems with having our current level of capacity provisioning, and we're fine with the level of service we provide."
- learc83 9y ago
  It's going to be even worse with 5g. 5g is just a spec and the current most likely way to meet that spec is with micro-cells operating at higher frequencies. They will require line of site because higher frequencies can't penetrate obstacles. To get 5g speeds and capacities, you're going to need to put towers everywhere. Smaller towers yes, but many many more of them.
  - jburgess777 9y ago
    This matches what has been said about the planned rollout of 5G in the UK: more use of higher frequency bands and cells sites possibly sited at every road junction (intersection). The impact of land topology is seen as so important that the UK Ordnance Survey have got involved with simulating 5G coverage: http://os.uk/5g http://os.uk/5g https://5g.co.uk/ https://5g.co.uk/
mdorazio 9y ago
In many cases it's not that simple. Local governments are often in control of permitting for cell tower sites. The telcos can't just plop down new towers wherever they want and call it a day.
zanny 9y ago
And societies have the ability to add more capacity by realizing by having privately owned radio spectrum the advancement and adoption of wireless data transfer has been stunted for decades. Everyone likes to argue that you can't have an all wireless society because there is limited bandwidth available, but as it is we are only using about 10% of the usable spectrum (from about 200MHZ to 8GHZ) for network data connectivity, and even then most of it is still privately controlled - if an area has too many AT&T subscribers and not enough Verizon customers, the Verizon spectrums go to waste while the AT&T ones are oversaturated. There are a few things I could name off the top of my head that would overnight dramatically improve technology, but nationalizing back light for the people to use and then having this entire range opened up to generic data transfer with the same congestion rules and regulations used on currently open bandwidth rings would go a long way to improving most of our lives dramatically.
- jeffreyrogers 9y ago
  You need to have someone coordinate frequency use or else you'll get tons of interference. At least by making people pay for it you incentize them to actually use the part of the spectrum they've purchased.
- godelski 9y ago
  > There are a few things I could name off the top of my head that would overnight dramatically improve technology Could you name a few? This is HN after all, we like to get technical.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  Private companies don't own spectrum, they lease it. They pay the government substantial sums of money for the temporary, revocable right to use a chunk of spectrum. Light is already nationalised, the government just chooses to rent it out, partly on the basis of need and partly on a market basis. That allocation system isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than declaring everything from DC to daylight an ISM band and letting the users have at it.
  - awelkie 9y ago
    Good point about owning vs leasing. But there's also a lot of room between private spectrum rights and the ISM band free-for-all.
    - jdietrich 9y ago
      Of those middle-ground options, I can't think of any that don't involve revoking a lot of licenses and rendering a lot of expensive equipment useless. It's theoretically possible to manage spectrum dynamically, but you need a clear channel and smart devices. Consider the digital television transition - it freed up a substantial amount of spectrum for other users, but it took many years and cost billions of dollars. Broadcast TV and radio is less significant today than it was in 2009, but there are thousands of spectrum user groups who would find it difficult to switch to dynamically managed spectrum, not to mention the potential safety issues. The RF spectrum is a busy old place. We can carve out little bits here and there, but there just aren't many useful blocks left that aren't already being used by something quite important. Most of those allocations involve co-ordination with the ITU and couldn't be significantly altered without international agreement. https://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/january_2016_spectrum_wall_chart.pdf https://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/january_201...
scarface74 9y ago
Yes but what happens when everyone at a stadium tries to get on the same tower? But the fault doesn't completely lie with the telcos. Getting permission to build a tower can take years.
- jburgess777 9y ago
  Wembley stadium in the UK is used as technology showcase for one of our mobile providers: https://wembley.ee.co.uk/ https://wembley.ee.co.uk/ For more dynamic situations (think Glastonbury music festival) the telcos have been deploying mobile cell towers from the back of trucks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_cell_sites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_cell_sites These don't just get used for pop concerts in stadiums but also for disaster response: http://about.att.com/inside_connections_blog/hurricane_maria http://about.att.com/inside_connections_blog/hurricane_maria
  - Rjevski 9y ago
    > Wembley stadium in the UK is used as technology showcase for one of our mobile providers Except they're more interested in pitching their bullshit iBeacon-based "SmartGuide" tracking technology or light show than network access. This is one of the major problems I see with mobile telcos; they seem to get sidetracked on everything but the mobile network which should be their top priority. No, I don't give a shit about kids programming the light shows or iBeacons, I need fast, rock-solid network access; leave the rest to other companies that have the resources and focus do it better.
daveburstein 9y ago
Author here. Density is one way to add capacity but adding more spectrum or more antennas turns out to be cheaper most place today. (Carrier aggregation and MIMO.) Millimeter wave is essentially adding more spectrum.

They have the capability, but this intersects with local building codes, zoning laws, and safety standards. It also carries increased costs over time. What's being said here is, "We don't foresee any problems with having our current level of capacity provisioning, and we're fine with the level of service we provide."

learc83 9y ago
It's going to be even worse with 5g. 5g is just a spec and the current most likely way to meet that spec is with micro-cells operating at higher frequencies. They will require line of site because higher frequencies can't penetrate obstacles. To get 5g speeds and capacities, you're going to need to put towers everywhere. Smaller towers yes, but many many more of them.
- jburgess777 9y ago
  This matches what has been said about the planned rollout of 5G in the UK: more use of higher frequency bands and cells sites possibly sited at every road junction (intersection). The impact of land topology is seen as so important that the UK Ordnance Survey have got involved with simulating 5G coverage: http://os.uk/5g http://os.uk/5g https://5g.co.uk/ https://5g.co.uk/

mdorazio 9y ago

In many cases it's not that simple. Local governments are often in control of permitting for cell tower sites. The telcos can't just plop down new towers wherever they want and call it a day.

zanny 9y ago

And societies have the ability to add more capacity by realizing by having privately owned radio spectrum the advancement and adoption of wireless data transfer has been stunted for decades. Everyone likes to argue that you can't have an all wireless society because there is limited bandwidth available, but as it is we are only using about 10% of the usable spectrum (from about 200MHZ to 8GHZ) for network data connectivity, and even then most of it is still privately controlled - if an area has too many AT&T subscribers and not enough Verizon customers, the Verizon spectrums go to waste while the AT&T ones are oversaturated. There are a few things I could name off the top of my head that would overnight dramatically improve technology, but nationalizing back light for the people to use and then having this entire range opened up to generic data transfer with the same congestion rules and regulations used on currently open bandwidth rings would go a long way to improving most of our lives dramatically.

jeffreyrogers 9y ago
You need to have someone coordinate frequency use or else you'll get tons of interference. At least by making people pay for it you incentize them to actually use the part of the spectrum they've purchased.
godelski 9y ago
> There are a few things I could name off the top of my head that would overnight dramatically improve technology Could you name a few? This is HN after all, we like to get technical.
jdietrich 9y ago
Private companies don't own spectrum, they lease it. They pay the government substantial sums of money for the temporary, revocable right to use a chunk of spectrum. Light is already nationalised, the government just chooses to rent it out, partly on the basis of need and partly on a market basis. That allocation system isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than declaring everything from DC to daylight an ISM band and letting the users have at it.
- awelkie 9y ago
  Good point about owning vs leasing. But there's also a lot of room between private spectrum rights and the ISM band free-for-all.
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    Of those middle-ground options, I can't think of any that don't involve revoking a lot of licenses and rendering a lot of expensive equipment useless. It's theoretically possible to manage spectrum dynamically, but you need a clear channel and smart devices. Consider the digital television transition - it freed up a substantial amount of spectrum for other users, but it took many years and cost billions of dollars. Broadcast TV and radio is less significant today than it was in 2009, but there are thousands of spectrum user groups who would find it difficult to switch to dynamically managed spectrum, not to mention the potential safety issues. The RF spectrum is a busy old place. We can carve out little bits here and there, but there just aren't many useful blocks left that aren't already being used by something quite important. Most of those allocations involve co-ordination with the ITU and couldn't be significantly altered without international agreement. https://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/january_2016_spectrum_wall_chart.pdf https://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/january_201...

scarface74 9y ago

Yes but what happens when everyone at a stadium tries to get on the same tower? But the fault doesn't completely lie with the telcos. Getting permission to build a tower can take years.

jburgess777 9y ago
Wembley stadium in the UK is used as technology showcase for one of our mobile providers: https://wembley.ee.co.uk/ https://wembley.ee.co.uk/ For more dynamic situations (think Glastonbury music festival) the telcos have been deploying mobile cell towers from the back of trucks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_cell_sites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_cell_sites These don't just get used for pop concerts in stadiums but also for disaster response: http://about.att.com/inside_connections_blog/hurricane_maria http://about.att.com/inside_connections_blog/hurricane_maria
- Rjevski 9y ago
  > Wembley stadium in the UK is used as technology showcase for one of our mobile providers Except they're more interested in pitching their bullshit iBeacon-based "SmartGuide" tracking technology or light show than network access. This is one of the major problems I see with mobile telcos; they seem to get sidetracked on everything but the mobile network which should be their top priority. No, I don't give a shit about kids programming the light shows or iBeacons, I need fast, rock-solid network access; leave the rest to other companies that have the resources and focus do it better.

daveburstein 9y ago

Author here. Density is one way to add capacity but adding more spectrum or more antennas turns out to be cheaper most place today. (Carrier aggregation and MIMO.) Millimeter wave is essentially adding more spectrum.