4 ms·

No, I think orchestras will get less work. I'm still in favor of this, but let's not kid ourselves. This is obsoleting recorded classical music (unless you care

No, I think orchestras will get less work. I'm still in favor of this, but let's not kid ourselves. This is obsoleting recorded classical music (unless you care for a specific orchestra). EDIT: I just noticed that you mentioned the bit about orchestras sounding unique. Well, maybe I'm not that into classical music, but this would probably satisfy me to a large extent.

sp332 16y ago
You can already buy a good recording for ~$20 USD. This isn't about listening to a CD, this is about freeing up the music for creative purposes, beyond just listening.
- hugh3 16y ago
  More to the point you can usually buy a crappy recording for two or three bucks on Naxos or some similar label.
  - olifante 16y ago
    You haven't listened to many Naxos recordings, have you? Quoting from page 2 of their 2008 catalogue (http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/pdf/NaxosCat2008May.pdf http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/pdf/NaxosCat2008May.pdf): More than half of all current Naxos recordings are included in various editions of the authoritative Penguin Guide. Several Naxos recordings have been distinguished with a Rosette or "Key Recording" accolade by the Penguin Guide: http://www.naxos.com/feature/Penguin_Guide_Top.asp http://www.naxos.com/feature/Penguin_Guide_Top.asp
nodata 16y ago
If this project succeeds and brings classical music to a wider audience, demand for the real thing, live, being there will mean orchestras get more work.
edanm 16y ago
Classical music has always been cheap. Or at least, you could usually find a cheap recording of a piece, instead of going for a big-name orchestra. Most people don't care, sure. But there have been examples of giving away free books to cause excitement and arouse interest. Classical music is not hugely popular nowadays, but this might help more people hear it and enjoy it, getting them to the place where they do want several recordings of the same piece. Then again, this is all hypothetical. I doubt anyone can predict what effect this actually has. Edit: One last point. You can hear almost any piece nowadays with a quick Youtube search, and that includes any quality recording you want. For people just looking to hear a piece quickly, I doubt Museopen will have anywhere near the effect that Youtube already has.
- magic5227 16y ago
  until they pull it for infringement. Also, i want music people can use legally, can you do that with any video on YT?
  - edanm 16y ago
    Like I said, it's great for those purposes and I'm glad someone's doing it. But for people just casually wanting to hear some recordings at home, nothing beats YouTube right now.
jerf 16y ago
To the extent that that is a problem, it is a past-tense problem. It has already happened. This won't add to the existing problem in any significant manner. The real problem is that we don't need enough orchestras to actually sustain orchestras as an industry anymore, and the attempts to get around this fact are based in emotion, not fact or economics. I do not celebrate this, in fact I have the same emotional reaction many people do, but nevertheless I see it clearly: Classical music is not economically viable. We might as well record what we can while the orchestras still exist; at least the recordings will sound as good in 100 years as they do today.
- haberman 16y ago
  > The real problem is that we don't need enough orchestras to actually sustain orchestras as an industry anymore I don't understand how you reach this conclusion. Orchestras exist primarily for their live performances, and the halls where they perform seat just as many people as they always have. Classical music is alive and well, from what I can see -- what makes you think differently?
  - jerf 16y ago
    A series of articles like this over the years: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/25/arts/music/25ravi.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/25/arts/music/25ravi.html If that is inaccurate reporting, then I plead being fed bad data. The other problem is that market behaviors are typically nonlinear. If you cut the demand down by 50%, that doesn't necessarily mean that you get 50% less output. If the going price based on the supply and demand curves sinks below the cost of production for some of the players, production can drop dramatically, not just linearly proportionally. Unless something drastic changes in the demand trends I don't see how this fate will be escaped.
    - hugh3 16y ago
      I have no idea what the precise financial situations of the world's orchestras are. But I do know that many of them are perpetually crying poor but never actually closing their doors. I can't think of any major orchestra which has ever actually had to shut down due to a lack of money coming in. New recordings must be, I imagine, a rapidly-dissolving revenue stream anyway. Any piece which is actually popular among buyers already has a number of "definitive" recordings which it would be difficult to top, and anything which isn't already the subject of a zillion recordings will probably never sell much anyway.
baddox 16y ago
Obviously this can only be done if an orchestra is willing to perform for a recording that will be public domain. Also, you must note what the point of this is. Making the recording public domain means you can use them in commercial works like indie films. You can already get free classical music to listen to just by pirating it, and you can argue over whether that hurts the artists or not. However, unless you have a death wish, you wouldn't use pirated music in a commercial work.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
Kadin 16y ago
I'm not sure that really holds much water. Right now, there are a ton of classical recordings available (just under extremely restrictive copyrights). If you want to listen to recorded music, it's available. You can go right down to your library and probably find a bigger collection than what Museopen will have for a while. What you can't do is legally use those recordings in films, YouTube videos, etc. (Although de facto you probably can, I don't think enforcement is particularly aggressive.) This is where Museopen changes things. However, I don't think those usages -- the ones prohibited by current copyrights on recordings -- were keeping orchestras alive. At least not most orchestras. Most modern orchestras exist because people want to go to the symphony and listen to live music. They're paying for the experience, not just to listen to a particular piece of music. There are a very small minority of professional orchestras that might be affected by this, I guess ... orchestras who do soundtrack work. But I'm willing to bet that the bulk of their business is playing actual custom-written soundtrack scores, and not playing Beethoven's 9th over and over again for everybody who wants a copy. The downsides to this are really, really limited, as far as I can tell. The net losers are probably the classical labels like RCA and Deutsche Grammophon, who have the big back-catalogs of classical music and license them out, not modern, living musicians.

sp332 16y ago

You can already buy a good recording for ~$20 USD. This isn't about listening to a CD, this is about freeing up the music for creative purposes, beyond just listening.

hugh3 16y ago
More to the point you can usually buy a crappy recording for two or three bucks on Naxos or some similar label.
- olifante 16y ago
  You haven't listened to many Naxos recordings, have you? Quoting from page 2 of their 2008 catalogue (http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/pdf/NaxosCat2008May.pdf http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/pdf/NaxosCat2008May.pdf): More than half of all current Naxos recordings are included in various editions of the authoritative Penguin Guide. Several Naxos recordings have been distinguished with a Rosette or "Key Recording" accolade by the Penguin Guide: http://www.naxos.com/feature/Penguin_Guide_Top.asp http://www.naxos.com/feature/Penguin_Guide_Top.asp

nodata 16y ago

If this project succeeds and brings classical music to a wider audience, demand for the real thing, live, being there will mean orchestras get more work.

edanm 16y ago

Classical music has always been cheap. Or at least, you could usually find a cheap recording of a piece, instead of going for a big-name orchestra. Most people don't care, sure. But there have been examples of giving away free books to cause excitement and arouse interest. Classical music is not hugely popular nowadays, but this might help more people hear it and enjoy it, getting them to the place where they do want several recordings of the same piece. Then again, this is all hypothetical. I doubt anyone can predict what effect this actually has. Edit: One last point. You can hear almost any piece nowadays with a quick Youtube search, and that includes any quality recording you want. For people just looking to hear a piece quickly, I doubt Museopen will have anywhere near the effect that Youtube already has.

magic5227 16y ago
until they pull it for infringement. Also, i want music people can use legally, can you do that with any video on YT?
- edanm 16y ago
  Like I said, it's great for those purposes and I'm glad someone's doing it. But for people just casually wanting to hear some recordings at home, nothing beats YouTube right now.

jerf 16y ago

To the extent that that is a problem, it is a past-tense problem. It has already happened. This won't add to the existing problem in any significant manner. The real problem is that we don't need enough orchestras to actually sustain orchestras as an industry anymore, and the attempts to get around this fact are based in emotion, not fact or economics. I do not celebrate this, in fact I have the same emotional reaction many people do, but nevertheless I see it clearly: Classical music is not economically viable. We might as well record what we can while the orchestras still exist; at least the recordings will sound as good in 100 years as they do today.

haberman 16y ago
> The real problem is that we don't need enough orchestras to actually sustain orchestras as an industry anymore I don't understand how you reach this conclusion. Orchestras exist primarily for their live performances, and the halls where they perform seat just as many people as they always have. Classical music is alive and well, from what I can see -- what makes you think differently?
- jerf 16y ago
  A series of articles like this over the years: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/25/arts/music/25ravi.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/25/arts/music/25ravi.html If that is inaccurate reporting, then I plead being fed bad data. The other problem is that market behaviors are typically nonlinear. If you cut the demand down by 50%, that doesn't necessarily mean that you get 50% less output. If the going price based on the supply and demand curves sinks below the cost of production for some of the players, production can drop dramatically, not just linearly proportionally. Unless something drastic changes in the demand trends I don't see how this fate will be escaped.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    I have no idea what the precise financial situations of the world's orchestras are. But I do know that many of them are perpetually crying poor but never actually closing their doors. I can't think of any major orchestra which has ever actually had to shut down due to a lack of money coming in. New recordings must be, I imagine, a rapidly-dissolving revenue stream anyway. Any piece which is actually popular among buyers already has a number of "definitive" recordings which it would be difficult to top, and anything which isn't already the subject of a zillion recordings will probably never sell much anyway.

baddox 16y ago

Obviously this can only be done if an orchestra is willing to perform for a recording that will be public domain. Also, you must note what the point of this is. Making the recording public domain means you can use them in commercial works like indie films. You can already get free classical music to listen to just by pirating it, and you can argue over whether that hurts the artists or not. However, unless you have a death wish, you wouldn't use pirated music in a commercial work.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

Kadin 16y ago

I'm not sure that really holds much water. Right now, there are a ton of classical recordings available (just under extremely restrictive copyrights). If you want to listen to recorded music, it's available. You can go right down to your library and probably find a bigger collection than what Museopen will have for a while. What you can't do is legally use those recordings in films, YouTube videos, etc. (Although de facto you probably can, I don't think enforcement is particularly aggressive.) This is where Museopen changes things. However, I don't think those usages -- the ones prohibited by current copyrights on recordings -- were keeping orchestras alive. At least not most orchestras. Most modern orchestras exist because people want to go to the symphony and listen to live music. They're paying for the experience, not just to listen to a particular piece of music. There are a very small minority of professional orchestras that might be affected by this, I guess ... orchestras who do soundtrack work. But I'm willing to bet that the bulk of their business is playing actual custom-written soundtrack scores, and not playing Beethoven's 9th over and over again for everybody who wants a copy. The downsides to this are really, really limited, as far as I can tell. The net losers are probably the classical labels like RCA and Deutsche Grammophon, who have the big back-catalogs of classical music and license them out, not modern, living musicians.