5 ms·

What fortunate timing.

kome 9y ago
What fortunate timing indeed. That's just a kind reminder about what the interests of Google and Amazon are. Not those of their consumers for sure. Also, especially Google have all the interest to let the Russians destroy Telegram. At this point I would be very suspicious of all other messengers that still work in Russia. Edit: also Amnesty International is on it: https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/986955700550144002 https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/986955700550144002
- baybal2 9y ago
  >At this point I would be very suspicious of all other messengers that still work in Russia. That's a conjecture is rational, but I think you already have to be very suspicious of anything that worked there for last 5 years, Telegram inclusively. It is unbelievable for me that they maintained legal presence in the country up until now, while all others were indiscriminately blocked years ago, and incompliant software authors were raided by 3 letter agencies and raped with assault rifles.
  - kome 9y ago
    Others were "indiscriminately blocked years ago"? Do you have a source for that? As far I know - but I might be wrong - Google, Facebook, Instagram or Whatsapp have never been blocked in Russia.
    - baybal2 9y ago
      BBM public server was certainly blocked as early as 5 years ago. Blackphone servers at around 4 or 3 years ago as well, just few months after its market release (while signal is still available though) All modded GSM phones were under blanket ban for even longer. Modded GSM phone vendors are routinely raided. Then Line, KaoKao and gazillion of others. There is no doubt that they were very deliberate in targeting anything with hard crypto. FB, and Google are routinely complying with Russians, so no wonder about them still being there.
      - kome 9y ago
        Thanks! It's even more suspicious why Google and Facebook products still works then... And they have never been blocked.
      - Lionsion 9y ago
        > modded GSM phones What do you mean by this? I'm genuinely curious. "modded GSM phones" yields zero hits on Google for me.
        baybal2 9y ago
        Stuff like TopSec S35 or Security AG. Some are garage made. All of them basically put a block cypher in between the GSM codec chip and the modem. Such stuff was relatively easy to do on old dumbphones
        acct1771 9y ago
        Are there any modern incarnations?
  - nabc45 9y ago
    >while all others were indiscriminately blocked years ago As far as I am concerned Telegram was blocked for 1) being used by terrorists and 2) the Telegram staff refusing to turn in data to aid the investigation. This has not happened to other messengers like WhatsApp and they are not blocked. Am I wrong?
    - baybal2 9y ago
      >WhatsApp and they are not blocked. Am I wrong? FB routinely complied with regime's requests, just take a look on a number of chatrooms they took down. So no wonder them not being seen as a problem.
      - nabc45 9y ago
        Calling Russia a regime is like calling Microsoft "Micro$oft".
        StavrosK 9y ago
        I would imagine the analogy would be to call Russia ₽ussia.
    - codedokode 9y ago
      Actually there are interesting legal details in the story. Telegram should be blocked under the Russian court order for not providing decryption keys, but that order doesn't contain ruling to block entire Amazon or Google network - only IP addresses used by Telegram. Whole networks are being blocked under the order by Prosecutor General from 2015 (yes, from 2015, and recently they started to use new order from 2018). But the problem is that Prosecutor's Office doesn't have authority to block messengers, so the order is about discovering illegal content (extremist content or appeals for organizing unapproved rally - not sure if I translated correctly) located on all of those IP addresses which obviously is a lie. So this is dubious even under russian laws. Why are they blocking entire networks? Well, the problem is that there are limits in ACL size so if Telegram starts using thousands of IP addresses the tables can become too big. So they chose to block entire networks instead. Also, finding out which IP addresses they are using takes time, distributing and updating blocking rules by ISP takes time (on order of hours, up to a day), so without this Telegram could change IPs faster than they are blocked. There already are russian businesses that were using IP addresses from those networks, that are suffering damages because of blocking. They are moving to other datacenters in a rush. It is unlikely that they will try to recover damages from the government.
  - notyourday 9y ago
    Well, unlike other execs, Durov has been challenging Russia at a great personal cost for years.
    - Fins 9y ago
      No longer than a couple of years ago Durov was writing sweet fairy tales about Great Russia and how he's never going to leave because it is the greatest place on Earth. Only when his business (based on hosting pirated content and stolen designs) was slightly "shared" with more important people did he suddenly change his tune. I don't have any opinion on this, but it is rather common sentiment in Runet that really Telegram is in cahoots with Russian TLAs anyway.
- Traubenfuchs 9y ago
  If you want to spin conspiracy theories think about the following: It's very likely that every time we hear that government x can't beat software y (TrueCrypt, Telegram, etc.) it's fake news to make you think that software is safe and increase the amount of users who trust it.
- codedokode 9y ago
  Viber currently has problems with connectivity in Russia. They have been complying with russian laws, but they made an unwise decision to use servers in Amazon network that are being blocked now because of Telegram. So the messenger that complies with the law now has problems and Telegram just works.
anc84 9y ago
What are you referring to?
- lucb1e 9y ago
  Telegram I'd assume.
ckastner 9y ago
I already guessed a few days ago that this is probably the next step we will see from Google and Amazon after the Russian blanket ban on AWS and GCP IPs [1]. It was either that, or the Russian goverment backing off an extreme measure. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16856763 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16856763

kome 9y ago

What fortunate timing indeed. That's just a kind reminder about what the interests of Google and Amazon are. Not those of their consumers for sure. Also, especially Google have all the interest to let the Russians destroy Telegram. At this point I would be very suspicious of all other messengers that still work in Russia. Edit: also Amnesty International is on it: https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/986955700550144002 https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/986955700550144002

baybal2 9y ago
>At this point I would be very suspicious of all other messengers that still work in Russia. That's a conjecture is rational, but I think you already have to be very suspicious of anything that worked there for last 5 years, Telegram inclusively. It is unbelievable for me that they maintained legal presence in the country up until now, while all others were indiscriminately blocked years ago, and incompliant software authors were raided by 3 letter agencies and raped with assault rifles.
- kome 9y ago
  Others were "indiscriminately blocked years ago"? Do you have a source for that? As far I know - but I might be wrong - Google, Facebook, Instagram or Whatsapp have never been blocked in Russia.
  - baybal2 9y ago
    BBM public server was certainly blocked as early as 5 years ago. Blackphone servers at around 4 or 3 years ago as well, just few months after its market release (while signal is still available though) All modded GSM phones were under blanket ban for even longer. Modded GSM phone vendors are routinely raided. Then Line, KaoKao and gazillion of others. There is no doubt that they were very deliberate in targeting anything with hard crypto. FB, and Google are routinely complying with Russians, so no wonder about them still being there.
    - kome 9y ago
      Thanks! It's even more suspicious why Google and Facebook products still works then... And they have never been blocked.
    - Lionsion 9y ago
      > modded GSM phones What do you mean by this? I'm genuinely curious. "modded GSM phones" yields zero hits on Google for me.
      - baybal2 9y ago
        Stuff like TopSec S35 or Security AG. Some are garage made. All of them basically put a block cypher in between the GSM codec chip and the modem. Such stuff was relatively easy to do on old dumbphones
        acct1771 9y ago
        Are there any modern incarnations?
- nabc45 9y ago
  >while all others were indiscriminately blocked years ago As far as I am concerned Telegram was blocked for 1) being used by terrorists and 2) the Telegram staff refusing to turn in data to aid the investigation. This has not happened to other messengers like WhatsApp and they are not blocked. Am I wrong?
  - baybal2 9y ago
    >WhatsApp and they are not blocked. Am I wrong? FB routinely complied with regime's requests, just take a look on a number of chatrooms they took down. So no wonder them not being seen as a problem.
    - nabc45 9y ago
      Calling Russia a regime is like calling Microsoft "Micro$oft".
      - StavrosK 9y ago
        I would imagine the analogy would be to call Russia ₽ussia.
  - codedokode 9y ago
    Actually there are interesting legal details in the story. Telegram should be blocked under the Russian court order for not providing decryption keys, but that order doesn't contain ruling to block entire Amazon or Google network - only IP addresses used by Telegram. Whole networks are being blocked under the order by Prosecutor General from 2015 (yes, from 2015, and recently they started to use new order from 2018). But the problem is that Prosecutor's Office doesn't have authority to block messengers, so the order is about discovering illegal content (extremist content or appeals for organizing unapproved rally - not sure if I translated correctly) located on all of those IP addresses which obviously is a lie. So this is dubious even under russian laws. Why are they blocking entire networks? Well, the problem is that there are limits in ACL size so if Telegram starts using thousands of IP addresses the tables can become too big. So they chose to block entire networks instead. Also, finding out which IP addresses they are using takes time, distributing and updating blocking rules by ISP takes time (on order of hours, up to a day), so without this Telegram could change IPs faster than they are blocked. There already are russian businesses that were using IP addresses from those networks, that are suffering damages because of blocking. They are moving to other datacenters in a rush. It is unlikely that they will try to recover damages from the government.
- notyourday 9y ago
  Well, unlike other execs, Durov has been challenging Russia at a great personal cost for years.
  - Fins 9y ago
    No longer than a couple of years ago Durov was writing sweet fairy tales about Great Russia and how he's never going to leave because it is the greatest place on Earth. Only when his business (based on hosting pirated content and stolen designs) was slightly "shared" with more important people did he suddenly change his tune. I don't have any opinion on this, but it is rather common sentiment in Runet that really Telegram is in cahoots with Russian TLAs anyway.
Traubenfuchs 9y ago
If you want to spin conspiracy theories think about the following: It's very likely that every time we hear that government x can't beat software y (TrueCrypt, Telegram, etc.) it's fake news to make you think that software is safe and increase the amount of users who trust it.
codedokode 9y ago
Viber currently has problems with connectivity in Russia. They have been complying with russian laws, but they made an unwise decision to use servers in Amazon network that are being blocked now because of Telegram. So the messenger that complies with the law now has problems and Telegram just works.

anc84 9y ago

What are you referring to?

lucb1e 9y ago
Telegram I'd assume.

ckastner 9y ago

I already guessed a few days ago that this is probably the next step we will see from Google and Amazon after the Russian blanket ban on AWS and GCP IPs [1]. It was either that, or the Russian goverment backing off an extreme measure. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16856763 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16856763