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Hydrogen offers better prospects for civil aviation than batteries do. Airbus did a study[0] that showed it would be possible to power all civil aviation use ca

by gene-h 9y ago

Hydrogen offers better prospects for civil aviation than batteries do. Airbus did a study[0] that showed it would be possible to power all civil aviation use cases with cryogenic hydrogen. They even showed that in the near term existing aircraft could be modified to run off of hydrogen for short and medium range. Getting longer ranges would require new aircraft though. They also believe that we could see short range and medium range hydrogen powered aircraft introduced as early as 2015. Of course it's 2018 and this hasn't happened, possibly due to the cost of producing hydrogen. [0]http://www.fzt.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Scholz/dglr/hh/text_2004_02_26_Cryoplane.pdf http://www.fzt.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Scholz/dglr/hh/text_2004_...

oh_sigh 9y ago
> possibly due to the cost of producing hydrogen. Cursory googling claims you can generate hydrogen for $28/million-BTU with electricity @ 5c/kwh. 1 million BTU is about 8 gallons worth of jet fuel, so I would guess that jet fuel is much cheaper than $4/gallon?
- kingnothing 9y ago
  The nationwide average for Jet A is $4.53 / gal https://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html https://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html
  - asdfadsfgfdda 9y ago
    Airlines pay much less for jet A than FBO prices, probably closer to $2/gal (https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/eer_epjk_pf4_rgc_dpgD.htm https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/eer_epjk_pf4_rgc_dpgD.htm).
- Hextinium 9y ago
  Cost runs actually about the same, jet fuel is about $5 dollars a gallon probably cheaper wholesale the issue comes from even though hydrogen produces more 3x energy per kg than jet fuel the energy density is 3x less per unit volume. Meaning you would need bigger fuel tanks per distance travelled which would require modifying the airframe to be bigger in addition to having to add insulation.
- dogma1138 9y ago
  Is that the actual current cost or an estimated one based on the cost of the electricity required? Also hydrogen is much harder and costlier to transport and store (refueling is also not a walk in the park either) than jet fuel. Cryogenic hydrogen is even more costly on all fronts.
dimal 9y ago
Hasn't the problem with hydrogen always been actually getting enough hydrogen?
- deelowe 9y ago
  I thought it was storage/embrittlement.
- DmenshunlAnlsis 9y ago
  I believe that you’re thinking of Helium. As @deelowe said, the issues with a Hydrogen are safe and stable storage, and the tendency of Hudrogen to penetrate metals and make them brittle. Producing hydrogen is trivial with electrolysis or water, which could be achieved using nuclear and renewable power sources. Of course burning coal to produce Hydrogen is currently cheaper and more common, and an environmental disaster. The problem with Hydrogen is that you want to store it in big, strong metal containers, but it destroys the container and leaks out. So instead you store it in composite fiber containers, but then you have an explosive gas under pressure in a vessel that can be cracked. This is part of the reason that research tends to focus on processes within fuel cells which produce hydrogen JIT, so you obviate the need to produce and store large volumes. The problem with that is the need for more power input than you get out, or the need for expensive catalysts like Platinum. tl;dr With current tech you need nuclear power to efficiently produce large volumes of Hydrogen, but that’s a political minefield. Storing Hydrogen is a nightmare. Hydrogen explodes, and peolle are rightfully wary of carrying and transporting it in large volumes. The kinds of containers which are affordable and practical are made of materials Hydrogen readily attacks.
  - danellis 9y ago
    > Hydrogen explodes, and peolle are rightfully wary of carrying and transporting it in large volumes. Oh, the humanity.
    - selectodude 9y ago
      You can drop a match into gasoline and it won’t light.
greglindahl 9y ago
Hydrogen offered better prospects for cars than batteries do... Toyota and others can show you many studies which support hydrogen for cars. Where are the hydrogen-powered cars?
- na85 9y ago
  There's no hydrogen fuel infrastructure.
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    Right. California subsidized one because it's only fair: https://cafcp.org/stationmap https://cafcp.org/stationmap It's a losing technology, but at least they were given a chance.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Where are the hydrogen-powered cars? I personally see them pretty much every day, mostly Mirais. But then again, I live fairly close to one of the fueling stations.
taneq 9y ago
Hydrogen is worse than electric on almost all fronts. Others here have covered the storage issues, but there's also the issue that generating hydrogen is very inefficient compared with just storing the electricity in batteries.
- kristianp 9y ago
  And yet the japanese are still spending money on refuelling stations for hydrogen cars. I don't really understand it, given EVs are taking off by comparison. https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/12/honda-toyota-hydrogen-fuel-cell-refuelling-japan/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/12/honda-toyota-hydrogen-fu...
  - taneq 9y ago
    Can't lose face, gotta double down.
- alex_duf 9y ago
  I think in some narrow use cases it makes sense to use hydrogen. There's this pilot program going on on a small Scottish Island where they use wind power on overproducing days to produce hydrogen. That hydrogen is then use for their ferry. I'm not a hydrogen proponent, far from it in fact, but it does have it's own place for local usages in case of overproduction.

by gene-h 9y ago

oh_sigh 9y ago

> possibly due to the cost of producing hydrogen. Cursory googling claims you can generate hydrogen for $28/million-BTU with electricity @ 5c/kwh. 1 million BTU is about 8 gallons worth of jet fuel, so I would guess that jet fuel is much cheaper than $4/gallon?

kingnothing 9y ago
The nationwide average for Jet A is $4.53 / gal https://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html https://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html
- asdfadsfgfdda 9y ago
  Airlines pay much less for jet A than FBO prices, probably closer to $2/gal (https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/eer_epjk_pf4_rgc_dpgD.htm https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/eer_epjk_pf4_rgc_dpgD.htm).
Hextinium 9y ago
Cost runs actually about the same, jet fuel is about $5 dollars a gallon probably cheaper wholesale the issue comes from even though hydrogen produces more 3x energy per kg than jet fuel the energy density is 3x less per unit volume. Meaning you would need bigger fuel tanks per distance travelled which would require modifying the airframe to be bigger in addition to having to add insulation.
dogma1138 9y ago
Is that the actual current cost or an estimated one based on the cost of the electricity required? Also hydrogen is much harder and costlier to transport and store (refueling is also not a walk in the park either) than jet fuel. Cryogenic hydrogen is even more costly on all fronts.

dimal 9y ago

Hasn't the problem with hydrogen always been actually getting enough hydrogen?

deelowe 9y ago
I thought it was storage/embrittlement.
DmenshunlAnlsis 9y ago
I believe that you’re thinking of Helium. As @deelowe said, the issues with a Hydrogen are safe and stable storage, and the tendency of Hudrogen to penetrate metals and make them brittle. Producing hydrogen is trivial with electrolysis or water, which could be achieved using nuclear and renewable power sources. Of course burning coal to produce Hydrogen is currently cheaper and more common, and an environmental disaster. The problem with Hydrogen is that you want to store it in big, strong metal containers, but it destroys the container and leaks out. So instead you store it in composite fiber containers, but then you have an explosive gas under pressure in a vessel that can be cracked. This is part of the reason that research tends to focus on processes within fuel cells which produce hydrogen JIT, so you obviate the need to produce and store large volumes. The problem with that is the need for more power input than you get out, or the need for expensive catalysts like Platinum. tl;dr With current tech you need nuclear power to efficiently produce large volumes of Hydrogen, but that’s a political minefield. Storing Hydrogen is a nightmare. Hydrogen explodes, and peolle are rightfully wary of carrying and transporting it in large volumes. The kinds of containers which are affordable and practical are made of materials Hydrogen readily attacks.
- danellis 9y ago
  > Hydrogen explodes, and peolle are rightfully wary of carrying and transporting it in large volumes. Oh, the humanity.
  - selectodude 9y ago
    You can drop a match into gasoline and it won’t light.

greglindahl 9y ago

Hydrogen offered better prospects for cars than batteries do... Toyota and others can show you many studies which support hydrogen for cars. Where are the hydrogen-powered cars?

na85 9y ago
There's no hydrogen fuel infrastructure.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  Right. California subsidized one because it's only fair: https://cafcp.org/stationmap https://cafcp.org/stationmap It's a losing technology, but at least they were given a chance.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Where are the hydrogen-powered cars? I personally see them pretty much every day, mostly Mirais. But then again, I live fairly close to one of the fueling stations.

taneq 9y ago

Hydrogen is worse than electric on almost all fronts. Others here have covered the storage issues, but there's also the issue that generating hydrogen is very inefficient compared with just storing the electricity in batteries.

kristianp 9y ago
And yet the japanese are still spending money on refuelling stations for hydrogen cars. I don't really understand it, given EVs are taking off by comparison. https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/12/honda-toyota-hydrogen-fuel-cell-refuelling-japan/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/12/honda-toyota-hydrogen-fu...
- taneq 9y ago
  Can't lose face, gotta double down.
alex_duf 9y ago
I think in some narrow use cases it makes sense to use hydrogen. There's this pilot program going on on a small Scottish Island where they use wind power on overproducing days to produce hydrogen. That hydrogen is then use for their ferry. I'm not a hydrogen proponent, far from it in fact, but it does have it's own place for local usages in case of overproduction.