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Every accountant attending an interview can produce a certificate from an accredited national group saying that they have taken an in-person, proctored exam on

Every accountant attending an interview can produce a certificate from an accredited national group saying that they have taken an in-person, proctored exam on double-entry accounting, which is the 'credentials check' you refer to. There's nothing like it for programmers.

irq11 9y ago
And? You think that a certification exam provides more evidence than a university degree? (which, let’s face it, most programmers have). No, this is a made-up difficulty, caused by the fact that programmers think there’s a silver bullet solution to evaluating competency in an “objective” manner.
WorldMaker 9y ago
There are plenty of options. Programmers only just have to pick one, or create a new one for all that it matters. For instance, NCEES that runs the Professional Engineering accreditation that every other Engineering discipline utilizes, has a Software Engineering PE. Tomorrow we could grandfather in every Senior Dev with 5+ years experience as a PE and then start requiring it, and encouraging kids to train for it and acquire that accreditation. One major proctored exam scales a lot better than every company for themselves reinventing an almost proctored exam.
- monocasa 9y ago
  Have you seen the Software PE? In contrast to the other PE exams, it manages to cover everything except actual programming. https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/ncees_PESoftware_2013.pdf https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/ncees_PESoftware_2013....
  - edcarter 9y ago
    That is because it is an actual __Engineering__ exam, not a programming one. Testing for programming skills in an SE exam is like testing a mechanical engineer's CAD skills. I would argue that the majority of "SE" jobs do not actually entail engineering but software development (or construction), which is only a small subset of SE.
    - monocasa 9y ago
      The computer engineering exam has tons of the underpinnings covered, with a whole section on relevant math. Where as the software one pretty much only covers process. The one algorithms or discrete math question they have boils down to just 'what is big o complexity'.
      - WorldMaker 9y ago
        I guess the question is what is the necessary "base set" that shows proficiency enough in learning that you could throw someone at a problem and expect them to solve it. Keep in mind that to keep a PE active there are also lifelong learning requirements. Certainly what I see in the PE today seems like a good starting base. Having some idea of Big O complexity can be a great place to start when working with algorithms, and certainly from my perspective I'd rather have an engineer with a solid idea of Big O complexity trade-off issues than a bunch of rote memorized implementations of classic algorithms. Also, don't forget that a lot of discrete math and algorithms bubbled up into the Fundamentals of Engineering test that is the prerequisite of the PE test: https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Ele-CBT-specs.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Ele-CBT-specs.pdf Which isn't to say that the PE can't be improved for Software Engineering to better meet industry needs, but certainly the current PE still stands as a good starting point that the industry could try to hone to a better tool if they wanted.
FireBeyond 9y ago
You mean a CPA. My girlfriend has just graduated college with an Accounting degree. > There's nothing like it for programmers. What exactly is the difference between a BA (Accounting), and a BSc (Computing) in terms of validation? Now if you want to talk CPA? Sure, but the equivalent of that would be a Software Engineering (similar to PE/CE/ME). Apples and oranges.

irq11 9y ago

And? You think that a certification exam provides more evidence than a university degree? (which, let’s face it, most programmers have). No, this is a made-up difficulty, caused by the fact that programmers think there’s a silver bullet solution to evaluating competency in an “objective” manner.

WorldMaker 9y ago

There are plenty of options. Programmers only just have to pick one, or create a new one for all that it matters. For instance, NCEES that runs the Professional Engineering accreditation that every other Engineering discipline utilizes, has a Software Engineering PE. Tomorrow we could grandfather in every Senior Dev with 5+ years experience as a PE and then start requiring it, and encouraging kids to train for it and acquire that accreditation. One major proctored exam scales a lot better than every company for themselves reinventing an almost proctored exam.

monocasa 9y ago
Have you seen the Software PE? In contrast to the other PE exams, it manages to cover everything except actual programming. https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/ncees_PESoftware_2013.pdf https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/ncees_PESoftware_2013....
- edcarter 9y ago
  That is because it is an actual __Engineering__ exam, not a programming one. Testing for programming skills in an SE exam is like testing a mechanical engineer's CAD skills. I would argue that the majority of "SE" jobs do not actually entail engineering but software development (or construction), which is only a small subset of SE.
  - monocasa 9y ago
    The computer engineering exam has tons of the underpinnings covered, with a whole section on relevant math. Where as the software one pretty much only covers process. The one algorithms or discrete math question they have boils down to just 'what is big o complexity'.
    - WorldMaker 9y ago
      I guess the question is what is the necessary "base set" that shows proficiency enough in learning that you could throw someone at a problem and expect them to solve it. Keep in mind that to keep a PE active there are also lifelong learning requirements. Certainly what I see in the PE today seems like a good starting base. Having some idea of Big O complexity can be a great place to start when working with algorithms, and certainly from my perspective I'd rather have an engineer with a solid idea of Big O complexity trade-off issues than a bunch of rote memorized implementations of classic algorithms. Also, don't forget that a lot of discrete math and algorithms bubbled up into the Fundamentals of Engineering test that is the prerequisite of the PE test: https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Ele-CBT-specs.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Ele-CBT-specs.pdf Which isn't to say that the PE can't be improved for Software Engineering to better meet industry needs, but certainly the current PE still stands as a good starting point that the industry could try to hone to a better tool if they wanted.

FireBeyond 9y ago

You mean a CPA. My girlfriend has just graduated college with an Accounting degree. > There's nothing like it for programmers. What exactly is the difference between a BA (Accounting), and a BSc (Computing) in terms of validation? Now if you want to talk CPA? Sure, but the equivalent of that would be a Software Engineering (similar to PE/CE/ME). Apples and oranges.