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Before people comment too much about wage inequality consider for a moment that this ins't a feudal state where people are locked into role and wage limits outs

Before people comment too much about wage inequality consider for a moment that this ins't a feudal state where people are locked into role and wage limits outside their control. I am a software developer for one of the larger companies and also an Army Reservist. When I go away to do Army stuff I frequently encounter people who work much harder and earn much less than I do in their civilian jobs. Is that fair? I would say, it doesn't matter. I tell those people how being a software developer generally isn't super intense or stressful and you make all this money, but yet the people I tell this to generally don't want to write software. The disparity is that a senior software development position isn't immediately free like a dinner mint at the end of dinner. You have to practice writing software really hard and really invest your time into solving hard problems. In all my experience talking about wage inequality the ultimate disparity that always arises is time spent investing in yourself without any reasonable compensation. EDIT: I did not start programming until age 28. I was already married and had two children.

Tyrek 9y ago
Sure, but you're omitting a crucial step - a relative minority of the population were actively enabled and were able to pursue their interests/self-invest/etc. when they were much younger (read: teenaged), which gave them a snowballing competitive advantage as they got older.
- c2kc 9y ago
  100%
- zdragnar 9y ago
  I didn't pursue programming as a hobby- and then a career- until later in life than what you are assuming here. In fact, I have worked with a number of people at multiple companies- their first programming jobs- who are older than me. They have all come from lower paying jobs. The key is that they put in effort to change. One was raising two children- an infant and a toddler- and if he wasn't actively coding, he was reading or listening to something programming related. For now, at least, programming is a highly sought-after skill, and with determination and effort, you can get into it. There really aren't any other barriers than (1) saving up for a cheap computer, and (2) having reliable internet access.
narrator 9y ago
The lie in America is that everyone is good at everything and those who don't succeed aren't trying hard enough. This lie is used to make people who aren't talented believe it's due to a moral failing or character flaw and thus talented people are morally superior.
vorpalhex 9y ago
I'm a high paid software engineer. I also had amazing computer teachers and remember writing BASIC programs to play MIDI in elementary. I also have the advantage of living in the city, being a white male, and being young and social. Being a software engineer requires a particular mindset, a lot of time and exposure, and people willing to support that. I was lucky enough to have all of the above, but most folks do not. I'm in the midst of helping a friend who is currently a welder move into software engineering. He's extremely intelligent and has the brain for it, but it's also taken literal years, finding him a capable dev machine (a used macbook air, donated from another engineer), tutoring him (me and another engineer, going on for two years now), and now he's going to a bootcamp (which cost thousands of dollars he didn't have in his pocket). He is still going to have to find an actual job and make the move from bootcamp to real life. That's another involved process that will require multiple people helping him. And again, this is a young white male who has a very high aptitude for this. It's a bit more work than "just invest in yourself!". The average computer user has difficulty searching their own email or resetting a password. Even those with natural aptitude require help - and not a trivial amount either.
- ghrifter 9y ago
  > being a white male why do you bring up race and gender?
- el_cid 9y ago
  And what you are proposing for your friend, after all these years of struggle for a better tomorrow - is to make the same amount of money as he did as a welder? There are 2 sides to this. And the positive side of having something to work towards is usually not mentioned. I can give you an example from Europe, in a country which is homogeneous ethnically. We all went to the same public schools and we had the same opportunities. At 30 - some of us make more than 10 times than others. There is no system of oppression which caused this. It was simply the market which has imposed this difference. And the market is at an equilibrium - because the people who earn higher wages, pay a LOT of money for healthcare, the social pension system and other social security things. If the gov would increase this further in order to close the "gap" between high earners and the have-nots/less, the high earners would just leave the country (they already do this to a degree). Why not let the market decide? This is not about privilege and oppression and I am surprised that over the pond people have not learned from Europe's history. There is also the side that by having a system in place that rewards effort - people strive for more everyday and this leads to prosperity. This country has been under communism and during those times no one was struggling for anything, because they were paid just the same.
nylonstrung 9y ago
I'm going to guess that the majority of people working in Amazon warehouses are well into adulthood, probably have kids, don't have above a high school education, and likely lack general computer literacy in the first place. How should they move into software engineering?
baby 9y ago
Does it mean these people should “survive” on such a salary? Is that what you are saying?
- austincheney 9y ago
  In short, yes. If a person does not like that amount of money, which is well below a skilled profession, then they should feel sufficiently motivated to devote time to developing a skill. I know that may sound cold, but it is just a reflection of basic economics.
  - piva00 9y ago
    And that is your problem, your basic economics doesn't necessarily need to be the only way that the world works. Marketable skills should be better paid? Of course. Should it pay 10~15x more to be writing scripts at Google than to be frying burgers at some place? I don't think so. If you care about people you should care that everyone has a minimum liveable wage, not that some should suffer because they can't/won't learn a high paying skill. What if instead of 10 to 15x a job at Google paid 5x what a burger flipper earns? It's still a quite good salary, incentive enough to not stop people from trying to learn better paying skills and would make the lives of people who aren't at that level a bit more comfortable. Remember the human.
    - darepublic 9y ago
      What if minimum wage causes less people to be hired.
      - piva00 9y ago
        Why that doesn't happen in a bunch of other developed economies then? What makes the US so special and different?
        darepublic 9y ago
        For the purpose of discussion do you mind giving me an example of such a country

Tyrek 9y ago

Sure, but you're omitting a crucial step - a relative minority of the population were actively enabled and were able to pursue their interests/self-invest/etc. when they were much younger (read: teenaged), which gave them a snowballing competitive advantage as they got older.

c2kc 9y ago
100%
zdragnar 9y ago
I didn't pursue programming as a hobby- and then a career- until later in life than what you are assuming here. In fact, I have worked with a number of people at multiple companies- their first programming jobs- who are older than me. They have all come from lower paying jobs. The key is that they put in effort to change. One was raising two children- an infant and a toddler- and if he wasn't actively coding, he was reading or listening to something programming related. For now, at least, programming is a highly sought-after skill, and with determination and effort, you can get into it. There really aren't any other barriers than (1) saving up for a cheap computer, and (2) having reliable internet access.

narrator 9y ago

The lie in America is that everyone is good at everything and those who don't succeed aren't trying hard enough. This lie is used to make people who aren't talented believe it's due to a moral failing or character flaw and thus talented people are morally superior.

vorpalhex 9y ago

I'm a high paid software engineer. I also had amazing computer teachers and remember writing BASIC programs to play MIDI in elementary. I also have the advantage of living in the city, being a white male, and being young and social. Being a software engineer requires a particular mindset, a lot of time and exposure, and people willing to support that. I was lucky enough to have all of the above, but most folks do not. I'm in the midst of helping a friend who is currently a welder move into software engineering. He's extremely intelligent and has the brain for it, but it's also taken literal years, finding him a capable dev machine (a used macbook air, donated from another engineer), tutoring him (me and another engineer, going on for two years now), and now he's going to a bootcamp (which cost thousands of dollars he didn't have in his pocket). He is still going to have to find an actual job and make the move from bootcamp to real life. That's another involved process that will require multiple people helping him. And again, this is a young white male who has a very high aptitude for this. It's a bit more work than "just invest in yourself!". The average computer user has difficulty searching their own email or resetting a password. Even those with natural aptitude require help - and not a trivial amount either.

ghrifter 9y ago
> being a white male why do you bring up race and gender?
el_cid 9y ago
And what you are proposing for your friend, after all these years of struggle for a better tomorrow - is to make the same amount of money as he did as a welder? There are 2 sides to this. And the positive side of having something to work towards is usually not mentioned. I can give you an example from Europe, in a country which is homogeneous ethnically. We all went to the same public schools and we had the same opportunities. At 30 - some of us make more than 10 times than others. There is no system of oppression which caused this. It was simply the market which has imposed this difference. And the market is at an equilibrium - because the people who earn higher wages, pay a LOT of money for healthcare, the social pension system and other social security things. If the gov would increase this further in order to close the "gap" between high earners and the have-nots/less, the high earners would just leave the country (they already do this to a degree). Why not let the market decide? This is not about privilege and oppression and I am surprised that over the pond people have not learned from Europe's history. There is also the side that by having a system in place that rewards effort - people strive for more everyday and this leads to prosperity. This country has been under communism and during those times no one was struggling for anything, because they were paid just the same.

nylonstrung 9y ago

I'm going to guess that the majority of people working in Amazon warehouses are well into adulthood, probably have kids, don't have above a high school education, and likely lack general computer literacy in the first place. How should they move into software engineering?

baby 9y ago

Does it mean these people should “survive” on such a salary? Is that what you are saying?

austincheney 9y ago
In short, yes. If a person does not like that amount of money, which is well below a skilled profession, then they should feel sufficiently motivated to devote time to developing a skill. I know that may sound cold, but it is just a reflection of basic economics.
- piva00 9y ago
  And that is your problem, your basic economics doesn't necessarily need to be the only way that the world works. Marketable skills should be better paid? Of course. Should it pay 10~15x more to be writing scripts at Google than to be frying burgers at some place? I don't think so. If you care about people you should care that everyone has a minimum liveable wage, not that some should suffer because they can't/won't learn a high paying skill. What if instead of 10 to 15x a job at Google paid 5x what a burger flipper earns? It's still a quite good salary, incentive enough to not stop people from trying to learn better paying skills and would make the lives of people who aren't at that level a bit more comfortable. Remember the human.
  - darepublic 9y ago
    What if minimum wage causes less people to be hired.
    - piva00 9y ago
      Why that doesn't happen in a bunch of other developed economies then? What makes the US so special and different?
      - darepublic 9y ago
        For the purpose of discussion do you mind giving me an example of such a country