6 ms·

The other option is to check references, do credential checks, and simple bullshit screens during interviews, like every other professional interview. Literall

by irq11 9y ago

The other option is to check references, do credential checks, and simple bullshit screens during interviews, like every other professional interview. Literally every other profession has this challenge! Programmers are unique only in their seeming inability to realize that they are not unique. Accountants are not asked to solve double-entry accounting whiteboard problems. Finance professionals are not given take-home banking projects. Only programmers seem to be unable to be reasonable interviewers.

psyc 9y ago
Yes. I told the interviewer he could call any of my past managers, knowing they would take the call, and knowing they’d give a glowing report. He laughed!
- preordained 9y ago
  Well...fuck that guy. There is really no better measure, assuming you have the basic social skills to see through a con job/scam. I mean yah, you could always be tricked into calling someone's buddy or something, but with any depth or tactful questions that is rarely going to fool anyone.
anthuswilliams 9y ago
This is not to take away from your point, since I agree with you, but both accountants and finance professionals have stringent licensing requirements which (in theory) could provide a baseline expectation of competence.
- Arzh 9y ago
  That is the reason they get away with not testing them, because they have a universal test they can look to. Software jobs are pretty fluid, so unless we have a massive standard test that cover anything from embedded c to FE with react, it seems that kind of test is out of reach for software people.
  - WorldMaker 9y ago
    Civil Engineering has a huge gamut in specializations and in the last century has seen quite a lot of technological change; programming isn't as special as it thinks it is here. A credential test doesn't have to cover everything, it just has to cover the foundations and get some sense that a person is capable of life-long learning and improvement.
- jonhendry18 9y ago
  What about jobs like "business analyst"?
Arzh 9y ago
I don't see how that is actually doable all the time. In my short career I have moved from embedded c / c++ game engine / full stack / DBA / backend. All at different jobs with the previous manager not knowing I actually knew how to do the next job, if they were asked anything other than generic questions I would have sounded like a fraud.
lazyasciiart 9y ago
Every accountant attending an interview can produce a certificate from an accredited national group saying that they have taken an in-person, proctored exam on double-entry accounting, which is the 'credentials check' you refer to. There's nothing like it for programmers.
- irq11 9y ago
  And? You think that a certification exam provides more evidence than a university degree? (which, let’s face it, most programmers have). No, this is a made-up difficulty, caused by the fact that programmers think there’s a silver bullet solution to evaluating competency in an “objective” manner.
- WorldMaker 9y ago
  There are plenty of options. Programmers only just have to pick one, or create a new one for all that it matters. For instance, NCEES that runs the Professional Engineering accreditation that every other Engineering discipline utilizes, has a Software Engineering PE. Tomorrow we could grandfather in every Senior Dev with 5+ years experience as a PE and then start requiring it, and encouraging kids to train for it and acquire that accreditation. One major proctored exam scales a lot better than every company for themselves reinventing an almost proctored exam.
  - monocasa 9y ago
    Have you seen the Software PE? In contrast to the other PE exams, it manages to cover everything except actual programming. https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/ncees_PESoftware_2013.pdf https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/ncees_PESoftware_2013....
    - edcarter 9y ago
      That is because it is an actual __Engineering__ exam, not a programming one. Testing for programming skills in an SE exam is like testing a mechanical engineer's CAD skills. I would argue that the majority of "SE" jobs do not actually entail engineering but software development (or construction), which is only a small subset of SE.

by irq11 9y ago

psyc 9y ago

Yes. I told the interviewer he could call any of my past managers, knowing they would take the call, and knowing they’d give a glowing report. He laughed!

preordained 9y ago
Well...fuck that guy. There is really no better measure, assuming you have the basic social skills to see through a con job/scam. I mean yah, you could always be tricked into calling someone's buddy or something, but with any depth or tactful questions that is rarely going to fool anyone.

anthuswilliams 9y ago

This is not to take away from your point, since I agree with you, but both accountants and finance professionals have stringent licensing requirements which (in theory) could provide a baseline expectation of competence.

Arzh 9y ago
That is the reason they get away with not testing them, because they have a universal test they can look to. Software jobs are pretty fluid, so unless we have a massive standard test that cover anything from embedded c to FE with react, it seems that kind of test is out of reach for software people.
- WorldMaker 9y ago
  Civil Engineering has a huge gamut in specializations and in the last century has seen quite a lot of technological change; programming isn't as special as it thinks it is here. A credential test doesn't have to cover everything, it just has to cover the foundations and get some sense that a person is capable of life-long learning and improvement.
jonhendry18 9y ago
What about jobs like "business analyst"?

Arzh 9y ago

I don't see how that is actually doable all the time. In my short career I have moved from embedded c / c++ game engine / full stack / DBA / backend. All at different jobs with the previous manager not knowing I actually knew how to do the next job, if they were asked anything other than generic questions I would have sounded like a fraud.

lazyasciiart 9y ago

Every accountant attending an interview can produce a certificate from an accredited national group saying that they have taken an in-person, proctored exam on double-entry accounting, which is the 'credentials check' you refer to. There's nothing like it for programmers.

irq11 9y ago
And? You think that a certification exam provides more evidence than a university degree? (which, let’s face it, most programmers have). No, this is a made-up difficulty, caused by the fact that programmers think there’s a silver bullet solution to evaluating competency in an “objective” manner.
WorldMaker 9y ago
There are plenty of options. Programmers only just have to pick one, or create a new one for all that it matters. For instance, NCEES that runs the Professional Engineering accreditation that every other Engineering discipline utilizes, has a Software Engineering PE. Tomorrow we could grandfather in every Senior Dev with 5+ years experience as a PE and then start requiring it, and encouraging kids to train for it and acquire that accreditation. One major proctored exam scales a lot better than every company for themselves reinventing an almost proctored exam.
- monocasa 9y ago
  Have you seen the Software PE? In contrast to the other PE exams, it manages to cover everything except actual programming. https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/ncees_PESoftware_2013.pdf https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/ncees_PESoftware_2013....
  - edcarter 9y ago
    That is because it is an actual __Engineering__ exam, not a programming one. Testing for programming skills in an SE exam is like testing a mechanical engineer's CAD skills. I would argue that the majority of "SE" jobs do not actually entail engineering but software development (or construction), which is only a small subset of SE.