6 ms·

The hiring process is a response to the fact that employers cannot trust a single word candidates say about their experience. This isn't paranoia. Literally, mo

The hiring process is a response to the fact that employers cannot trust a single word candidates say about their experience. This isn't paranoia. Literally, most candidates we see cannot code, even when they supposed have a decade or more of industry experience. If the industry wasn't so full of lying incompetents, it wouldn't be an issue.

speby 9y ago
Others have definitely mentioned this experience. For me, I have encountered this very rarely. More common, IME, has been people who seem like they have a TON of deep experience in something but then, when pressed or inquired, only have shallow experience. So, in short, I don't run into people who claim to code but can't as often as I do people who can code at least a little bit but quickly are unable to deal with more complex technical problems, or more expansive knowledge of the language they prefer or use most.
- profalseidol 9y ago
  I'm in that group you interviewed. Didn't know what perm-gen is although I've seen it in errors when java used up all memory. Next question was about Hibernate's different caching levels. I've been rejected enough to eventually learn all these. Then finally when I got hired, questions were the very basic define static, inheritance etc. I knew it was a matter of numbers and should not mind the devastating feeling of rejection. But damn, you can never know how it feels experiencing tons of rejection until you do.
Clubber 9y ago
Yes but you can tell the difference without a whiteboard or take home test, right?
- carlosdp 9y ago
  I think so, I personally prefer the "look at this already written code, what does it do and can we find any bugs or issues?", less stressful and more collaborative, but good luck getting any non-startup size company to let you do it.
  - droidist2 9y ago
    I think this is an excellent idea. Most of your job will be working on already existing code (even if it's written by your former self).
  - darren_ 9y ago
    I do something reasonably similar all the time at Google for iOS interviews, few hundred lines of obj-c with some issues in them (actual issues, not typos)
gaius 9y ago
The hiring process is a response to the fact that employers cannot trust a single word candidates say about their experience. This isn't paranoia Here's the thing tho': my CV is honest and my track record is pretty good: some small companies and some name-brand, well respected in their industries, known for probing interviews, over about 20 years. There may be some bad actors in the global candidate pool. But seriously, asking me these questions is like tearing my CV up in front of me and calling me a liar to my face. I am not in the market right now and hope not to be for a good while, but I dream of being asked a stupid whiteboard question, solving it, then throwing the board eraser at the interviewer's head and walking out...
- TheGRS 9y ago
  I see on this board more than any other where people will agree that taking time to hire correctly is by and far more cost efficient than hiring quickly, but incorrectly. I've definitely gone through a lot of experiences now where someone looks like a rock star on paper, have a great cultural interview, and we don't give them a ton of technical exercises, only to find out that they can't hack it or, even worse, are dragging down the rest of the team. I really wanna trust people on this stuff, my instincts are to appeal to the greater good in people, but I've been burned enough to not trust it anymore.
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  Spot on. It's rude to ask very basic questions to anyone with seniority. Just skip them and ask interesting and difficult ones. If a company cannot be flexible and reasonable enough to skip basic questions it's a bit of a red flag.
  - Jach 9y ago
    It's a bit rude but until senior-level-role-interviewing candidates can stop falling over on the basic questions why waste time with harder ones? The "candidate with an MS degree in CS and x years at SomeCo, can't do FizzBuzz" isn't a myth, it really happens to people giving interviews. I've been having to give some interviews lately (though unfortunately they have to be within 'process') and my basic question is to write some code (with a computer) that outputs the endpoints of a line segment which bisects a plane between two input control points. (I give all the equations needed and the code is done within an application already set up.) It's still managed to trip up some people with experience who seemingly don't have the concept of representing a line mathematically (BS or MS in Physics, how?). We also tested it on intern candidates under shorter time constraints and a couple internal people, they did much better, I think all but one actually got the basic line done within half an hour even if edge cases remained. If we're given longer time constraints the problem and application framework scales to more interesting subjects like generating n-point voronoi diagrams and their applications, but we haven't gotten there with anyone yet...
pnw_hazor 9y ago
Well just fire the frauds. Hire using NN days contract-to-perm. Make the permanent offers after NN days.
- underwater 9y ago
  Onboarding an employee is a huge time suck, and constantly hiring and firing people doesn’t create a great environment for existing employees.
modbait 9y ago
If you can't tell in a ten-minute casual conversation whether or not someone is grossly lying on their resume, you probably shouldn't be an interviewer.
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  They can: with FizzBuzz. That's the whole point.
  - modbait 9y ago
    No--a ten-minute conversation with no coding, not a pop-quiz.
    - calcifer 9y ago
      That's not realistic. You and I are complete strangers; we can have a talk for 10 minutes where not a single word that comes out of my mouth is true and you'd be none the wiser.
      - Clubber 9y ago
        If you are a programmer, you can tell; just ask them about their previous projects. Dig into their answers and ask follow up questions. What data structure did you use to do this part? What in the database was designed poorly and why? (Every database has a design issue). I mean if you were at a party and some guy came up to you chatting, claiming to be a senior whatever at BigTechCo, you'd start chatting him up and you could tell if he was full of BS pretty quickly.
        modbait 9y ago
        Exactly.

speby 9y ago

Others have definitely mentioned this experience. For me, I have encountered this very rarely. More common, IME, has been people who seem like they have a TON of deep experience in something but then, when pressed or inquired, only have shallow experience. So, in short, I don't run into people who claim to code but can't as often as I do people who can code at least a little bit but quickly are unable to deal with more complex technical problems, or more expansive knowledge of the language they prefer or use most.

profalseidol 9y ago
I'm in that group you interviewed. Didn't know what perm-gen is although I've seen it in errors when java used up all memory. Next question was about Hibernate's different caching levels. I've been rejected enough to eventually learn all these. Then finally when I got hired, questions were the very basic define static, inheritance etc. I knew it was a matter of numbers and should not mind the devastating feeling of rejection. But damn, you can never know how it feels experiencing tons of rejection until you do.

Clubber 9y ago

Yes but you can tell the difference without a whiteboard or take home test, right?

carlosdp 9y ago
I think so, I personally prefer the "look at this already written code, what does it do and can we find any bugs or issues?", less stressful and more collaborative, but good luck getting any non-startup size company to let you do it.
- droidist2 9y ago
  I think this is an excellent idea. Most of your job will be working on already existing code (even if it's written by your former self).
- darren_ 9y ago
  I do something reasonably similar all the time at Google for iOS interviews, few hundred lines of obj-c with some issues in them (actual issues, not typos)

gaius 9y ago

The hiring process is a response to the fact that employers cannot trust a single word candidates say about their experience. This isn't paranoia Here's the thing tho': my CV is honest and my track record is pretty good: some small companies and some name-brand, well respected in their industries, known for probing interviews, over about 20 years. There may be some bad actors in the global candidate pool. But seriously, asking me these questions is like tearing my CV up in front of me and calling me a liar to my face. I am not in the market right now and hope not to be for a good while, but I dream of being asked a stupid whiteboard question, solving it, then throwing the board eraser at the interviewer's head and walking out...

TheGRS 9y ago
I see on this board more than any other where people will agree that taking time to hire correctly is by and far more cost efficient than hiring quickly, but incorrectly. I've definitely gone through a lot of experiences now where someone looks like a rock star on paper, have a great cultural interview, and we don't give them a ton of technical exercises, only to find out that they can't hack it or, even worse, are dragging down the rest of the team. I really wanna trust people on this stuff, my instincts are to appeal to the greater good in people, but I've been burned enough to not trust it anymore.
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
Spot on. It's rude to ask very basic questions to anyone with seniority. Just skip them and ask interesting and difficult ones. If a company cannot be flexible and reasonable enough to skip basic questions it's a bit of a red flag.
- Jach 9y ago
  It's a bit rude but until senior-level-role-interviewing candidates can stop falling over on the basic questions why waste time with harder ones? The "candidate with an MS degree in CS and x years at SomeCo, can't do FizzBuzz" isn't a myth, it really happens to people giving interviews. I've been having to give some interviews lately (though unfortunately they have to be within 'process') and my basic question is to write some code (with a computer) that outputs the endpoints of a line segment which bisects a plane between two input control points. (I give all the equations needed and the code is done within an application already set up.) It's still managed to trip up some people with experience who seemingly don't have the concept of representing a line mathematically (BS or MS in Physics, how?). We also tested it on intern candidates under shorter time constraints and a couple internal people, they did much better, I think all but one actually got the basic line done within half an hour even if edge cases remained. If we're given longer time constraints the problem and application framework scales to more interesting subjects like generating n-point voronoi diagrams and their applications, but we haven't gotten there with anyone yet...

pnw_hazor 9y ago

Well just fire the frauds. Hire using NN days contract-to-perm. Make the permanent offers after NN days.

underwater 9y ago
Onboarding an employee is a huge time suck, and constantly hiring and firing people doesn’t create a great environment for existing employees.

modbait 9y ago

If you can't tell in a ten-minute casual conversation whether or not someone is grossly lying on their resume, you probably shouldn't be an interviewer.

Analemma_ 9y ago
They can: with FizzBuzz. That's the whole point.
- modbait 9y ago
  No--a ten-minute conversation with no coding, not a pop-quiz.
  - calcifer 9y ago
    That's not realistic. You and I are complete strangers; we can have a talk for 10 minutes where not a single word that comes out of my mouth is true and you'd be none the wiser.
    - Clubber 9y ago
      If you are a programmer, you can tell; just ask them about their previous projects. Dig into their answers and ask follow up questions. What data structure did you use to do this part? What in the database was designed poorly and why? (Every database has a design issue). I mean if you were at a party and some guy came up to you chatting, claiming to be a senior whatever at BigTechCo, you'd start chatting him up and you could tell if he was full of BS pretty quickly.
      - modbait 9y ago
        Exactly.