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I'll take a 3-day take-home project over a whiteboard interview or live coding session any day. Working at my pace with my tools in my space? Yes please. The a

I'll take a 3-day take-home project over a whiteboard interview or live coding session any day. Working at my pace with my tools in my space? Yes please. The article makes two good points re: bias and lack of research. To the first I think it's up to us as interviewees to mention this in all of our calls. "Do you have a non-take-home option? For some groups this could be an exceptional burden." To the second there's no real answer other than a lot of companies need to try it out to see how they fare and then when they have a basic idea of logistics that work run a study on efficacy / predictive power.

markbnj 9y ago
Came here to say almost exactly this. I can't speak to the bias issue. I do know that spending three days doing a little chat app last time around landed me one of the best gigs I've had. The process was painless, I would have spent that time coding and refreshing skills anyway, and the project was actually fun. I also know 100% that if the company I work for encountered a candidate who needed more time to work on the project due to child care or other responsibilities that would be quickly and happily accommodated. I wouldn't invest this kind of time as a first step, obviously, and would be turned off by any company that expected me to. I undertook this project after two 30 minute conversations had convinced both parties that there was a fit, and the project was a next step.
- rhapsodic 9y ago
  >I undertook this project after two 30 minute conversations had convinced both parties that there was a fit, and the project was a next step. In this case, I don't see it as unreasonable, because you didn't have to do the project just to have a shot at someone talking to you in person. I would never do a homework project as the first step in an application process. I would do one as the last step, after I had learned enough about the job and the company to decide that I really wanted it, and they had narrowed down the field to me and a handful of other candidates.
  - minimaxir 9y ago
    > I would never do a homework project as the first step in an application process. I would do one as the last step, after I had learned enough about the job and the company to decide that I really wanted it, and they had narrowed down the field to me and a handful of other candidates. When I was job hunting last year, the steps typically went like this. 1) 30 min phone call 2) Homework 3) Algorithm Exam 4) Onsite I typically got rejected at #3 which means the homework meant nothing.
    - TheGRS 9y ago
      Maybe to your experience, but it likely is a filter for others.
      - minimaxir 9y ago
        I have no issues with doing homework as a filter, but a homework plus an algorithm exam for filtering is annoying, especially since the homework is more related to on-job performance and the algorithm exam isn't. (and in my experience, it's never a weighted average of doing well on the HW and doing less-well on the algorithms: it's always pass/fail).
    - rhapsodic 9y ago
      >I typically got rejected at #3 which means the homework meant nothing. It got you to step #3, but if I were applying to that company, I would not have done the homework. When they told me of the homework assignment, I would have asked, "assuming I do it, what comes next?" And when they replied "an algorithm exam, followed by an onsite interview", my reply would have been, "homework is the last step, or no thank you." Then again, I have almost two decades of experience and a well-established track record of accomplishments. And I currently have a solid, well-paying job. If I were fresh out of school, trying to land my first programming job, I would probably be more flexible.
      - minimaxir 9y ago
        In disclosure, all the companies were upfront about the full interview process. That said, in this job market, there isn't much leverage to say no to a prospective job or to make demands of the interview process unless you're already a rockstar.
kilbuz 9y ago
Agree. I'm going to spend days of unpaid time 'cramming' for whatever random whiteboard questions I think they might ask me anyway. I'd rather put the time into showing how the work I actually do might be useful to their team. Makes a lot more sense from both sides IMO.
- marssaxman 9y ago
  This is a job interview, not a college exam; if you have to "cram", you're doing it wrong. (If they are interviewing you in such a way that "cramming" would make a difference, they're doing it wrong, and why would you want to work there?)
  - spookthesunset 9y ago
    A lot of whiteboard interviews require cramming. You never use any of the 'skills' these whiteboard interviews ask for in your day job at all. As somebody with decades of experience, your best bet is to get a "cracking the interview" book and run through all the practice test questions. After all, it is basically a little exam like back in school (because apparently that is who these people want to hire.... fresh grads who took their algo class a few quarters ago....)
    - marssaxman 9y ago
      As somebody with decades of experience myself, I have never experienced anything like you describe. The "skills" involved in whiteboard interviews I've participated in generally consist of "writing code", "thinking through a problem", and "communicating about your process". A more intense interview might also involve skills like "understanding computational complexity" and "making reasonable order-of-magnitude estimates". It is difficult for me to imagine how someone could work as a software developer without using these skills regularly. Then again, I never took any "algo class" or any other CS classes, so what do I know. I just think people fret way too much about getting all the details right in coding interviews, because in my experience (both interviewing and being interviewed) that just isn't the point.
minimaxir 9y ago
> Working at my pace with my tools in my space? Yes please. I've seen varying schools of thought where a 3 day time limit implies you're expected to spend full workdays (3*8 = 24 hours) on it, which is less at your own pace. I'm still annoyed at a 2-day assignment I was given which could not be done in less than 16 man hours.
- k__ 9y ago
  Yes, these assignments are hell.
walshemj 9y ago
Id possibly go for that but id want £500+ per day
Raphmedia 9y ago
> Working at my pace with my tools in my space? My life is separated. I have a computer filled with dev tools at work but my home computer is a media center plugged on the TV. I do have a laptop for emergency work but that computer is provided by my employer. I wouldn't do the job interview on that computer. Whenever some company tells me to do homework as part of their hiring process I simply run away. What this tells me is that they expect their employees to do unpaid work at home.
mlboss 9y ago
Problem with take home projects is that there is no commitment from the interviewers side. Candidate wastes time coding up the solution but interviewers does not have any obligation to even look at the solution. I wasted a week coding up a ML paper but never heard back from the interviewer. At least in white board interview they spend time with you with real time feedback.
- iandanforth 9y ago
  What paper? I'm always interested to see implementations and this is something I expect to be doing in the near future. Maybe I could read it and ask you some questions about your process?
megablast 9y ago
You just don't care about throwing away 3 days of your life? I have my own projects I would rather work on.
exDM69 9y ago
If you're interviewing with 10 companies, that would mean a solid month of work. I'd much rather spend 15-30 minutes on the whiteboard per company. But the whiteboard test should only be a smoke test for can/can-not program (ie. test for impostors and frauds), not an assessment of aptitude or in-depth knowledge about algorithms. 10-15 lines of code or so, "Guess the number", "FizzBuzz", "Count zero bits in 32 bit int", etc.

markbnj 9y ago

Came here to say almost exactly this. I can't speak to the bias issue. I do know that spending three days doing a little chat app last time around landed me one of the best gigs I've had. The process was painless, I would have spent that time coding and refreshing skills anyway, and the project was actually fun. I also know 100% that if the company I work for encountered a candidate who needed more time to work on the project due to child care or other responsibilities that would be quickly and happily accommodated. I wouldn't invest this kind of time as a first step, obviously, and would be turned off by any company that expected me to. I undertook this project after two 30 minute conversations had convinced both parties that there was a fit, and the project was a next step.

rhapsodic 9y ago
>I undertook this project after two 30 minute conversations had convinced both parties that there was a fit, and the project was a next step. In this case, I don't see it as unreasonable, because you didn't have to do the project just to have a shot at someone talking to you in person. I would never do a homework project as the first step in an application process. I would do one as the last step, after I had learned enough about the job and the company to decide that I really wanted it, and they had narrowed down the field to me and a handful of other candidates.
- minimaxir 9y ago
  > I would never do a homework project as the first step in an application process. I would do one as the last step, after I had learned enough about the job and the company to decide that I really wanted it, and they had narrowed down the field to me and a handful of other candidates. When I was job hunting last year, the steps typically went like this. 1) 30 min phone call 2) Homework 3) Algorithm Exam 4) Onsite I typically got rejected at #3 which means the homework meant nothing.
  - TheGRS 9y ago
    Maybe to your experience, but it likely is a filter for others.
    - minimaxir 9y ago
      I have no issues with doing homework as a filter, but a homework plus an algorithm exam for filtering is annoying, especially since the homework is more related to on-job performance and the algorithm exam isn't. (and in my experience, it's never a weighted average of doing well on the HW and doing less-well on the algorithms: it's always pass/fail).
  - rhapsodic 9y ago
    >I typically got rejected at #3 which means the homework meant nothing. It got you to step #3, but if I were applying to that company, I would not have done the homework. When they told me of the homework assignment, I would have asked, "assuming I do it, what comes next?" And when they replied "an algorithm exam, followed by an onsite interview", my reply would have been, "homework is the last step, or no thank you." Then again, I have almost two decades of experience and a well-established track record of accomplishments. And I currently have a solid, well-paying job. If I were fresh out of school, trying to land my first programming job, I would probably be more flexible.
    - minimaxir 9y ago
      In disclosure, all the companies were upfront about the full interview process. That said, in this job market, there isn't much leverage to say no to a prospective job or to make demands of the interview process unless you're already a rockstar.

kilbuz 9y ago

Agree. I'm going to spend days of unpaid time 'cramming' for whatever random whiteboard questions I think they might ask me anyway. I'd rather put the time into showing how the work I actually do might be useful to their team. Makes a lot more sense from both sides IMO.

marssaxman 9y ago
This is a job interview, not a college exam; if you have to "cram", you're doing it wrong. (If they are interviewing you in such a way that "cramming" would make a difference, they're doing it wrong, and why would you want to work there?)
- spookthesunset 9y ago
  A lot of whiteboard interviews require cramming. You never use any of the 'skills' these whiteboard interviews ask for in your day job at all. As somebody with decades of experience, your best bet is to get a "cracking the interview" book and run through all the practice test questions. After all, it is basically a little exam like back in school (because apparently that is who these people want to hire.... fresh grads who took their algo class a few quarters ago....)
  - marssaxman 9y ago
    As somebody with decades of experience myself, I have never experienced anything like you describe. The "skills" involved in whiteboard interviews I've participated in generally consist of "writing code", "thinking through a problem", and "communicating about your process". A more intense interview might also involve skills like "understanding computational complexity" and "making reasonable order-of-magnitude estimates". It is difficult for me to imagine how someone could work as a software developer without using these skills regularly. Then again, I never took any "algo class" or any other CS classes, so what do I know. I just think people fret way too much about getting all the details right in coding interviews, because in my experience (both interviewing and being interviewed) that just isn't the point.

minimaxir 9y ago

> Working at my pace with my tools in my space? Yes please. I've seen varying schools of thought where a 3 day time limit implies you're expected to spend full workdays (3*8 = 24 hours) on it, which is less at your own pace. I'm still annoyed at a 2-day assignment I was given which could not be done in less than 16 man hours.

k__ 9y ago
Yes, these assignments are hell.

walshemj 9y ago

Id possibly go for that but id want £500+ per day

Raphmedia 9y ago

> Working at my pace with my tools in my space? My life is separated. I have a computer filled with dev tools at work but my home computer is a media center plugged on the TV. I do have a laptop for emergency work but that computer is provided by my employer. I wouldn't do the job interview on that computer. Whenever some company tells me to do homework as part of their hiring process I simply run away. What this tells me is that they expect their employees to do unpaid work at home.

mlboss 9y ago

Problem with take home projects is that there is no commitment from the interviewers side. Candidate wastes time coding up the solution but interviewers does not have any obligation to even look at the solution. I wasted a week coding up a ML paper but never heard back from the interviewer. At least in white board interview they spend time with you with real time feedback.

iandanforth 9y ago
What paper? I'm always interested to see implementations and this is something I expect to be doing in the near future. Maybe I could read it and ask you some questions about your process?

megablast 9y ago

You just don't care about throwing away 3 days of your life? I have my own projects I would rather work on.

exDM69 9y ago

If you're interviewing with 10 companies, that would mean a solid month of work. I'd much rather spend 15-30 minutes on the whiteboard per company. But the whiteboard test should only be a smoke test for can/can-not program (ie. test for impostors and frauds), not an assessment of aptitude or in-depth knowledge about algorithms. 10-15 lines of code or so, "Guess the number", "FizzBuzz", "Count zero bits in 32 bit int", etc.