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> All I was saying is that people say "cities are spread out so transit won't work" when often the very _reason_ cities are spread out is that they lacked trans
by Lionsion 9y ago
> All I was saying is that people say "cities are spread out so transit won't work" when often the very _reason_ cities are spread out is that they lacked transit, so huge amounts of land were given over to auto infrastructure. It's worth considering that it's self-reinforcing and the causality isn't one-way.
IIRC, that's ahistorical and getting the causation backwards. American cities used to be denser with more public transit (e.g. trollies) before cars became common. The reason cities are spread out is cars enabled the residents to spread out, since that's what they wanted to do. That established a new pattern of development that makes density more difficult.
- CalRobert 9y agoTrue, but those people who moved out found that the externalities of their driving made driving itself less pleasant. It's great to live in the suburbs and drive in to the city when you're the only one doing it. When parking gets scarce or the roads are too narrow or congestion is bad, though, it gets annoying. For the US, the response was to mandate large amounts of parking and large roads that are built so they can move a certain number of cars a certain distance per hour. However, little thought was given to the fact that by doing so, you end up making the distances larger, because everything's farther apart, because it's surrounded by parking (among other reasons), wider streets, larger interchanges, etc. Those things that make driving more pleasant also make walking less pleasant (walking next to Wilshire blvd in LA isn't exactly pleasant, for instance), so more people drive, so more people demand auto-oriented infrastructure, and so on.
- JoeAltmaier 9y agoIsn't LA famously 40% car-related (road, parking, service) by area? A prime example of the cost of externalities.
- Lionsion 9y agoI think you're focusing optimizing lifestyle to suit a desired transit style (public transit and walking), while the historical development mindset was to optimize transit style for a desired lifestyle (suburban living).
- CalRobert 9y agoBut.. a lot of people don't desire suburban living. They don't get much choice because those neighborhoods are illegal to build.
- Lionsion 9y agoThey definitely exist, but I'm skeptical that there are enough of them to significantly reverse current car-centric development patterns.
- CalRobert 9y agoI just want to walk and ride my bike places without dying, and be allowed to build a 5 story apartment building near transit without people from miles away coming and yelling at me in city hall not to.