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> In Florida, the Seminole tribes distribute thousands of dollars/month, to each of their members just for being alive. Many of them end up having chronic issu

by yardie 9y ago

> In Florida, the Seminole tribes distribute thousands of dollars/month, to each of their members just for being alive. Many of them end up having chronic issues with drug and alcohol abuse. Okay I was with you for a little bit but this part of your comment is completely off the mark. The casinos are built on tribal land. And in many cases owned by the tribe. For all intents and purposes the tribe is a corporation. Members get a monthly dividend based on their percentage of native american blood. It is not UBI and not a welfare. If you or I, assuming you aren't NA, move to tribal land we still wouldn't be entitled to that money, nor through marriage. We aren't a stakeholder. I've been to Miccosoukee and Seminole country before and after the casinos. The additional income has made a lot of difference in improving their way of life. Hurricane hardened homes, fully funded schools, and reliable cars. As for alcohol and drug abuse. That is an issue with tribes who don't receive any money at all. That is a separate issue related to education, job prospects, and, yes still, racism. BTW, the Seminoles didn't just spend their dividend money on alcohol and opiates. They've been busy investing that money as well. They have bought the entire chain of Hard Rock restaurants and resorts.

jandrese 9y ago
IMHO this is more correct than you give it credit for. Humans need to feel a sense of accomplishment to maintain their mental health over the long term. Just giving them money to survive without giving them something to do leads to high rates of depression and self destructive behavior. A good percentage of the population is not self starters, they'll sit on their ass all day long if nobody forces them to get up. IMHO New Deal type projects are a better use of resources than UBI. Put people to work building/repairing infrastructure instead of just handing them cash and hoping they don't just spend it on drugs.
- yardie 9y ago
  I'm not sure what a good percentage is but I know the majority of the population is self-motivated. What that motivation is can very greatly and is affected by resources. I've sat on my ass plenty of times and watched TV simply because I didn't have the money to go anywhere. Will there people who abuse that goodwill? There is in almost every system. Just like you can't design the perfect lock to keep all thieves out and still be useful you can't design a UBI where everyone is going to use the money as we judge best. A new New Deal I think should cover more than just infrastructure. There are public works of art that we have now that would not exist if not for the fact that some administrator in the New Deal era thought having artwork was also important.
  - jandrese 9y ago
    Maybe, but I've done charity work in south West Virginia and welfare depression is a serious issue in former coal country. You want to see the people do just anything but they've lost all motivation. It's not everybody, but it's a big enough percentage of the population to cause a lot of problems.
    - civilitty 9y ago
      Is there any avenue for investment and personal growth for the majority people in coal country, let alone those on long term welfare? I ask because a wealthy friend sends a substantial amount of money home to relatives in WV ($2k per person or so) and even though they save quite a bit, there is nothing for them to do with that money other than move out to a more economically active area if they want to improve their lives. Starting a business or getting an education is pointless because there's no market for anything but the bare necessities. They even had trouble finding good local caterers, photographers, and a wedding planner even though they had saved up enough money to cover a decent wedding in an urban city. Basic income at least has the ability to thrust everyone in a region into the market by giving them disposable income so that there is actual activity that can provide opportunities.
    - oxide 9y ago
      State level welfare is not UBI. For almost every state youll get 200 dollars in EBT/person. These are nontranferable, you must only buy unprepared food, etc. Yes, even now people abuse this. You cannot make a perfect lock. If you have a kid you also get a bit of cash aid (less than 200 dollars.) Try living on 400 bucks for the next month or 12 and see how depressed it will make you.
  - aaron695 9y ago
    > I'm not sure what a good percentage is but I know the majority of the population is self-motivated. This is simply totally incorrect. If it was close to true we wouldn't need schools or universities. Everyone could self learn through books. Even MOOCs can't yet work out the motivation issues with drop out rates of 90%
- alistproducer2 9y ago
  I will concur with this based on my own anecdotal evidence. I know someone who has a good paying job that gives them nothing to do and they have struggled with depression ever since taking the position.
  - briansbum 9y ago
    There is a key difference here between your friend's job and UBI. If your friend instead of having their job got UBI they would still be able to go and find fullfilment in the workforce and bolster what they recieve from UBI with a salary. In the scenario you mentioned they are probably locked in by way of a contract from being able to find fillfilment unless they do it in their, probably small, amount of personal time.
whb07 9y ago
I mean, my little sister grew up with a member of the Seminole tribe in SFla, I can tell you from experience that her family didn’t have what is considered a “job”. Also, my friend was a medical doctor tending to a large group of them and would constantly comment on their alcoholism and shenanigans (which sounded awesome) with atvs and off-roading. I don’t really understand what you’re nitpicking with the money passed to tribesmen though. In theory UBI is passed to every one in the US based on citizenship. Same applies for that cash transfer for the seminoles. Same thing goes for Saudis and other gulf state members. Same thing applies if you were a stupendously wealthy man, you’d probably pass some cash around down to your descendants. A rose by any name, I’d say.
- yardie 9y ago
  Most of the rentier class also don't have a "job". Dividends, leases, and IP checks arrive into their bank accounts and they are free to choose what to do with it. Invest wisely or blow it on vices. In concept UBI is closer to welfare than the tribal or Saudi model. Gamblers willingly go to their casinos. We willingly purchase Saudi oil. Since the government owns the means of production they are within their right to give it to their constituents. If fewer people gamble, buy tax-free cigarettes, or use less petrol that is less money the tribe and Saudis have to give out. UBI is not voluntary. The government extracts that cash from me in the form of taxes to distribute it. I cannot use fewer government services and therefore give less money to them.

by yardie 9y ago

jandrese 9y ago

IMHO this is more correct than you give it credit for. Humans need to feel a sense of accomplishment to maintain their mental health over the long term. Just giving them money to survive without giving them something to do leads to high rates of depression and self destructive behavior. A good percentage of the population is not self starters, they'll sit on their ass all day long if nobody forces them to get up. IMHO New Deal type projects are a better use of resources than UBI. Put people to work building/repairing infrastructure instead of just handing them cash and hoping they don't just spend it on drugs.

yardie 9y ago
I'm not sure what a good percentage is but I know the majority of the population is self-motivated. What that motivation is can very greatly and is affected by resources. I've sat on my ass plenty of times and watched TV simply because I didn't have the money to go anywhere. Will there people who abuse that goodwill? There is in almost every system. Just like you can't design the perfect lock to keep all thieves out and still be useful you can't design a UBI where everyone is going to use the money as we judge best. A new New Deal I think should cover more than just infrastructure. There are public works of art that we have now that would not exist if not for the fact that some administrator in the New Deal era thought having artwork was also important.
- jandrese 9y ago
  Maybe, but I've done charity work in south West Virginia and welfare depression is a serious issue in former coal country. You want to see the people do just anything but they've lost all motivation. It's not everybody, but it's a big enough percentage of the population to cause a lot of problems.
  - civilitty 9y ago
    Is there any avenue for investment and personal growth for the majority people in coal country, let alone those on long term welfare? I ask because a wealthy friend sends a substantial amount of money home to relatives in WV ($2k per person or so) and even though they save quite a bit, there is nothing for them to do with that money other than move out to a more economically active area if they want to improve their lives. Starting a business or getting an education is pointless because there's no market for anything but the bare necessities. They even had trouble finding good local caterers, photographers, and a wedding planner even though they had saved up enough money to cover a decent wedding in an urban city. Basic income at least has the ability to thrust everyone in a region into the market by giving them disposable income so that there is actual activity that can provide opportunities.
  - oxide 9y ago
    State level welfare is not UBI. For almost every state youll get 200 dollars in EBT/person. These are nontranferable, you must only buy unprepared food, etc. Yes, even now people abuse this. You cannot make a perfect lock. If you have a kid you also get a bit of cash aid (less than 200 dollars.) Try living on 400 bucks for the next month or 12 and see how depressed it will make you.
- aaron695 9y ago
  > I'm not sure what a good percentage is but I know the majority of the population is self-motivated. This is simply totally incorrect. If it was close to true we wouldn't need schools or universities. Everyone could self learn through books. Even MOOCs can't yet work out the motivation issues with drop out rates of 90%
alistproducer2 9y ago
I will concur with this based on my own anecdotal evidence. I know someone who has a good paying job that gives them nothing to do and they have struggled with depression ever since taking the position.
- briansbum 9y ago
  There is a key difference here between your friend's job and UBI. If your friend instead of having their job got UBI they would still be able to go and find fullfilment in the workforce and bolster what they recieve from UBI with a salary. In the scenario you mentioned they are probably locked in by way of a contract from being able to find fillfilment unless they do it in their, probably small, amount of personal time.

whb07 9y ago

I mean, my little sister grew up with a member of the Seminole tribe in SFla, I can tell you from experience that her family didn’t have what is considered a “job”. Also, my friend was a medical doctor tending to a large group of them and would constantly comment on their alcoholism and shenanigans (which sounded awesome) with atvs and off-roading. I don’t really understand what you’re nitpicking with the money passed to tribesmen though. In theory UBI is passed to every one in the US based on citizenship. Same applies for that cash transfer for the seminoles. Same thing goes for Saudis and other gulf state members. Same thing applies if you were a stupendously wealthy man, you’d probably pass some cash around down to your descendants. A rose by any name, I’d say.

yardie 9y ago
Most of the rentier class also don't have a "job". Dividends, leases, and IP checks arrive into their bank accounts and they are free to choose what to do with it. Invest wisely or blow it on vices. In concept UBI is closer to welfare than the tribal or Saudi model. Gamblers willingly go to their casinos. We willingly purchase Saudi oil. Since the government owns the means of production they are within their right to give it to their constituents. If fewer people gamble, buy tax-free cigarettes, or use less petrol that is less money the tribe and Saudis have to give out. UBI is not voluntary. The government extracts that cash from me in the form of taxes to distribute it. I cannot use fewer government services and therefore give less money to them.