5 ms·

There are already large versions of UBI already in place, just by another name. If you take a look at Saudi Arabia and other rich gulf states, there’s essential

by whb07 9y ago

There are already large versions of UBI already in place, just by another name. If you take a look at Saudi Arabia and other rich gulf states, there’s essentially large cash transfers to citizenry for just being alive (and of course not revolting). It is of course telling that Saudi Arabia has no sort of industry and the little they produce via Aramco has large swaths of imported experts working for them. Same applies to the other gulf states, importing everything from house cleaning to engineering labor. As to an American UBI scheme, one can look at the handful of rich pockets of Native American tribes who run successful casino operations. In Florida, the Seminole tribes distribute thousands of dollars/month, to each of their members just for being alive. Many of them end up having chronic issues with drug and alcohol abuse.

telchar 9y ago
Of course that's not just a basic income, that's a full cushy income. A better example with be Alaska which uses ok revenues to give a subsidy to residents of the state.
- japhyr 9y ago
  We get about $1000/year, and the cost of living here is higher than just about any other state. You can't really compare the Alaska PFD to a UBI.
  - reaperducer 9y ago
    When I lived in Wisconsin, we got $400/year. Officially it was to help pay for heat in the winter, but I always thought of it as a consolation prize for having to live in Wisconsin. I hear Minnesotans get a stipend, too.
    - japhyr 9y ago
      In 2008, the AK PFD hit its all time high of $2069, and we got an "Alaska Resource Rebate" of $1200. Every family in the state who qualified got $3269 per person. In large families, that was a windfall. That said, I think that was the winter that was extra cold and windy. We were living in a house with a boiler, and it wasn't adjusted right one month. That month's heating bill was over $500. Heating costs are serious business. We got a deal on the house we bought because renters couldn't afford to heat the whole house one winter, and the cold and damp in the rest of the house caused enough damage to bring down the value of the house. I didn't know there were other states that offered blanket assistance like you described, that's pretty interesting to know.
yardie 9y ago
> In Florida, the Seminole tribes distribute thousands of dollars/month, to each of their members just for being alive. Many of them end up having chronic issues with drug and alcohol abuse. Okay I was with you for a little bit but this part of your comment is completely off the mark. The casinos are built on tribal land. And in many cases owned by the tribe. For all intents and purposes the tribe is a corporation. Members get a monthly dividend based on their percentage of native american blood. It is not UBI and not a welfare. If you or I, assuming you aren't NA, move to tribal land we still wouldn't be entitled to that money, nor through marriage. We aren't a stakeholder. I've been to Miccosoukee and Seminole country before and after the casinos. The additional income has made a lot of difference in improving their way of life. Hurricane hardened homes, fully funded schools, and reliable cars. As for alcohol and drug abuse. That is an issue with tribes who don't receive any money at all. That is a separate issue related to education, job prospects, and, yes still, racism. BTW, the Seminoles didn't just spend their dividend money on alcohol and opiates. They've been busy investing that money as well. They have bought the entire chain of Hard Rock restaurants and resorts.
- jandrese 9y ago
  IMHO this is more correct than you give it credit for. Humans need to feel a sense of accomplishment to maintain their mental health over the long term. Just giving them money to survive without giving them something to do leads to high rates of depression and self destructive behavior. A good percentage of the population is not self starters, they'll sit on their ass all day long if nobody forces them to get up. IMHO New Deal type projects are a better use of resources than UBI. Put people to work building/repairing infrastructure instead of just handing them cash and hoping they don't just spend it on drugs.
  - yardie 9y ago
    I'm not sure what a good percentage is but I know the majority of the population is self-motivated. What that motivation is can very greatly and is affected by resources. I've sat on my ass plenty of times and watched TV simply because I didn't have the money to go anywhere. Will there people who abuse that goodwill? There is in almost every system. Just like you can't design the perfect lock to keep all thieves out and still be useful you can't design a UBI where everyone is going to use the money as we judge best. A new New Deal I think should cover more than just infrastructure. There are public works of art that we have now that would not exist if not for the fact that some administrator in the New Deal era thought having artwork was also important.
pm90 9y ago
I still don't think this addresses the parents comment about the UBI operating on a country-wide scale. The Native American tribes, people in Alaska etc. are still a fraction of American society. Not to mention... there are other socio-economic factors that prevent the American tribes from being successful (e.g. perhaps a genetic pre-disposition to alcoholism as well). I would like to see what happens when a major population center, either a US state or a populous city, implements a form of UBI. That is when the true economic impact may be evident.
simplify 9y ago
> Many of them end up having chronic issues with drug and alcohol abuse. I don't think this is a constructive statement to make unless you compare rates between UBI and non-UBI.

by whb07 9y ago

telchar 9y ago

Of course that's not just a basic income, that's a full cushy income. A better example with be Alaska which uses ok revenues to give a subsidy to residents of the state.

japhyr 9y ago
We get about $1000/year, and the cost of living here is higher than just about any other state. You can't really compare the Alaska PFD to a UBI.
- reaperducer 9y ago
  When I lived in Wisconsin, we got $400/year. Officially it was to help pay for heat in the winter, but I always thought of it as a consolation prize for having to live in Wisconsin. I hear Minnesotans get a stipend, too.
  - japhyr 9y ago
    In 2008, the AK PFD hit its all time high of $2069, and we got an "Alaska Resource Rebate" of $1200. Every family in the state who qualified got $3269 per person. In large families, that was a windfall. That said, I think that was the winter that was extra cold and windy. We were living in a house with a boiler, and it wasn't adjusted right one month. That month's heating bill was over $500. Heating costs are serious business. We got a deal on the house we bought because renters couldn't afford to heat the whole house one winter, and the cold and damp in the rest of the house caused enough damage to bring down the value of the house. I didn't know there were other states that offered blanket assistance like you described, that's pretty interesting to know.

yardie 9y ago

> In Florida, the Seminole tribes distribute thousands of dollars/month, to each of their members just for being alive. Many of them end up having chronic issues with drug and alcohol abuse. Okay I was with you for a little bit but this part of your comment is completely off the mark. The casinos are built on tribal land. And in many cases owned by the tribe. For all intents and purposes the tribe is a corporation. Members get a monthly dividend based on their percentage of native american blood. It is not UBI and not a welfare. If you or I, assuming you aren't NA, move to tribal land we still wouldn't be entitled to that money, nor through marriage. We aren't a stakeholder. I've been to Miccosoukee and Seminole country before and after the casinos. The additional income has made a lot of difference in improving their way of life. Hurricane hardened homes, fully funded schools, and reliable cars. As for alcohol and drug abuse. That is an issue with tribes who don't receive any money at all. That is a separate issue related to education, job prospects, and, yes still, racism. BTW, the Seminoles didn't just spend their dividend money on alcohol and opiates. They've been busy investing that money as well. They have bought the entire chain of Hard Rock restaurants and resorts.

jandrese 9y ago
IMHO this is more correct than you give it credit for. Humans need to feel a sense of accomplishment to maintain their mental health over the long term. Just giving them money to survive without giving them something to do leads to high rates of depression and self destructive behavior. A good percentage of the population is not self starters, they'll sit on their ass all day long if nobody forces them to get up. IMHO New Deal type projects are a better use of resources than UBI. Put people to work building/repairing infrastructure instead of just handing them cash and hoping they don't just spend it on drugs.
- yardie 9y ago
  I'm not sure what a good percentage is but I know the majority of the population is self-motivated. What that motivation is can very greatly and is affected by resources. I've sat on my ass plenty of times and watched TV simply because I didn't have the money to go anywhere. Will there people who abuse that goodwill? There is in almost every system. Just like you can't design the perfect lock to keep all thieves out and still be useful you can't design a UBI where everyone is going to use the money as we judge best. A new New Deal I think should cover more than just infrastructure. There are public works of art that we have now that would not exist if not for the fact that some administrator in the New Deal era thought having artwork was also important.

pm90 9y ago

I still don't think this addresses the parents comment about the UBI operating on a country-wide scale. The Native American tribes, people in Alaska etc. are still a fraction of American society. Not to mention... there are other socio-economic factors that prevent the American tribes from being successful (e.g. perhaps a genetic pre-disposition to alcoholism as well). I would like to see what happens when a major population center, either a US state or a populous city, implements a form of UBI. That is when the true economic impact may be evident.

simplify 9y ago

> Many of them end up having chronic issues with drug and alcohol abuse. I don't think this is a constructive statement to make unless you compare rates between UBI and non-UBI.