9 ms·

The most incredible part of this story is the fact that it is the first fatality in a US-registered passenger aircraft accident in over nine years and the first

by tgb 9y ago

The most incredible part of this story is the fact that it is the first fatality in a US-registered passenger aircraft accident in over nine years and the first one in Southwest's 51 year history. (Though looking into it, that overlooks two deaths in Southwest's history: one where a passenger attempted to enter the cockpit and was subdue by other passengers and later died and another where the plane overran the run way during landing and struck a car, killing a young boy in the car.)

sangnoir 9y ago
Unfortunately Southwest suffered a similar uncontained engine failure in 2016 (Flight 3472)[1] - there was wing and fuselage damage, but the passenger compartment was not breached. The only difference is not of severity, but ill-/luck on where the shrapnel ended up. 1. https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/18/us/southwest-flight-engine-fan-blade/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/18/us/southwest-flight-engine-fa...
- fokinsean 9y ago
  Both instances used the CFM-56[0] engine, and I was reading on /r/aviation about how this engine has had prior problems. I don't know too much about aircraft engineering so I can't comment. Also apparently there is a disturbing trend of outsourcing maintenance to other countries which makes it harder for the FAA to enforce regulations[1]. Southwest for example sends their planes to El Salvador. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFM_International_CFM56 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFM_International_CFM56 [1]https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-maintenance-disturbing-truth https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-maintenance...
  - sangnoir 9y ago
    A few days ago, I read an article speculating on the cause of the CFM engine failures - I can't remember the source but it was by a former pilot and I found it cogent. These engines are old, and very widely used. The author suggested it was metal fatigue in the turbofan which wasn't caught - microcracks are hard to find, but can cause structural failures at operational velocity. Southwest's engine overhaul regime for this engine is every 10 000 miles, but that will probably need to be reduced pending the results of the investigations.
    - jlgaddis 9y ago
      10,000 miles? That seems like way too often for an "engine overhaul". For example, Southwest 1380 (this recent flight) was a New York to Dallas trip, 1264 nautical miles (roughly). That means an "engine overhaul" (and I'm not sure exactly what that entails) would be required after just eight of these flights -- or, say, four round trips -- and possibly even seven if it's 10,000 statute miles. I'm not a pilot or jet engine mechanic but that seems a bit too frequent. If that standard is specific to this engine because of its age or history of issues or something (and "regular" engines have a much lower standard), that would make more sense.
      - sangnoir 9y ago
        You are correct:10,000 miles is ridiculously low, that was off the top of my head and wrong. I should have said the SW 1380 plane had 10,000 flights logged since its last engine overhaul before the accident[1] - the article doesn't say how long the intervals are (but they are >10,000 flights). 1. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/04/how-a-cracked-fan-blade-probably-ended-a-decade-of-no-us-air-travel-fatalities/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/04/how-a...
cylinder 9y ago
We’ve chosen as a society to go all in on aviation safety due to the freakish and scary nature of aviation accidents. Meanwhile the US lags the developed world in road safety. Driving in the US is like a mad max situation. Many unnecessary deaths are preventable. Road deaths are double the OECD average. With high safety investment comes higher costs of flying which pushes more people into driving instead, which kills more people.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  Are you arguing for reducing aviation safety, or a massive investment in road safety like places like Sweden have done? I honestly can't tell.
  - Brockenstein 9y ago
    Greater road safety. He's saying because of the high cost of aviation safety, more people choose to drive than pay that cost, but driving is statistically much more dangerous. So we should address road safety since so many people are driving...
  - cylinder 9y ago
    Greater road safety. Aviation is a rare area where US government has done well regulating for safety. There’s no reason we can’t be as strict with cars. It’s a choice to accept risks.
    - sokoloff 9y ago
      > There’s no reason we can’t be as strict with cars. There is. Money and lots of it. "Oh, poor, working class person; you can't afford $5000-6000 per year in exploratory inspections? Well, no car for you then. We really can't be too safe, you know..." As an airplane owner, there's no way in hell the public would stand for the amount of maintenance and inspections given to aircraft for their cars. "Every year, completely remove the interior of the car, pull up the floorboards, lubricate and check tensions on all control cables, check the engine compression and visually inspect the valves, ..." I think my A36 has ~50 hours of mandatory inspections (at $105-125/hr) every 12 calendar months. That's before anything gets fixed (and of course, whatever gets broken during the inspections is also fixed on my dime). I'm not even sure that it particularly contributes to the good safety record, since most of the fatals are pilot-induced (just as most of the fatals on the road are driver-induced).

by tgb 9y ago

sangnoir 9y ago

Unfortunately Southwest suffered a similar uncontained engine failure in 2016 (Flight 3472)[1] - there was wing and fuselage damage, but the passenger compartment was not breached. The only difference is not of severity, but ill-/luck on where the shrapnel ended up. 1. https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/18/us/southwest-flight-engine-fan-blade/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/18/us/southwest-flight-engine-fa...

fokinsean 9y ago
Both instances used the CFM-56[0] engine, and I was reading on /r/aviation about how this engine has had prior problems. I don't know too much about aircraft engineering so I can't comment. Also apparently there is a disturbing trend of outsourcing maintenance to other countries which makes it harder for the FAA to enforce regulations[1]. Southwest for example sends their planes to El Salvador. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFM_International_CFM56 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFM_International_CFM56 [1]https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-maintenance-disturbing-truth https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-maintenance...
- sangnoir 9y ago
  A few days ago, I read an article speculating on the cause of the CFM engine failures - I can't remember the source but it was by a former pilot and I found it cogent. These engines are old, and very widely used. The author suggested it was metal fatigue in the turbofan which wasn't caught - microcracks are hard to find, but can cause structural failures at operational velocity. Southwest's engine overhaul regime for this engine is every 10 000 miles, but that will probably need to be reduced pending the results of the investigations.
  - jlgaddis 9y ago
    10,000 miles? That seems like way too often for an "engine overhaul". For example, Southwest 1380 (this recent flight) was a New York to Dallas trip, 1264 nautical miles (roughly). That means an "engine overhaul" (and I'm not sure exactly what that entails) would be required after just eight of these flights -- or, say, four round trips -- and possibly even seven if it's 10,000 statute miles. I'm not a pilot or jet engine mechanic but that seems a bit too frequent. If that standard is specific to this engine because of its age or history of issues or something (and "regular" engines have a much lower standard), that would make more sense.
    - sangnoir 9y ago
      You are correct:10,000 miles is ridiculously low, that was off the top of my head and wrong. I should have said the SW 1380 plane had 10,000 flights logged since its last engine overhaul before the accident[1] - the article doesn't say how long the intervals are (but they are >10,000 flights). 1. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/04/how-a-cracked-fan-blade-probably-ended-a-decade-of-no-us-air-travel-fatalities/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/04/how-a...

cylinder 9y ago

We’ve chosen as a society to go all in on aviation safety due to the freakish and scary nature of aviation accidents. Meanwhile the US lags the developed world in road safety. Driving in the US is like a mad max situation. Many unnecessary deaths are preventable. Road deaths are double the OECD average. With high safety investment comes higher costs of flying which pushes more people into driving instead, which kills more people.

ceejayoz 9y ago
Are you arguing for reducing aviation safety, or a massive investment in road safety like places like Sweden have done? I honestly can't tell.
- Brockenstein 9y ago
  Greater road safety. He's saying because of the high cost of aviation safety, more people choose to drive than pay that cost, but driving is statistically much more dangerous. So we should address road safety since so many people are driving...
- cylinder 9y ago
  Greater road safety. Aviation is a rare area where US government has done well regulating for safety. There’s no reason we can’t be as strict with cars. It’s a choice to accept risks.
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    > There’s no reason we can’t be as strict with cars. There is. Money and lots of it. "Oh, poor, working class person; you can't afford $5000-6000 per year in exploratory inspections? Well, no car for you then. We really can't be too safe, you know..." As an airplane owner, there's no way in hell the public would stand for the amount of maintenance and inspections given to aircraft for their cars. "Every year, completely remove the interior of the car, pull up the floorboards, lubricate and check tensions on all control cables, check the engine compression and visually inspect the valves, ..." I think my A36 has ~50 hours of mandatory inspections (at $105-125/hr) every 12 calendar months. That's before anything gets fixed (and of course, whatever gets broken during the inspections is also fixed on my dime). I'm not even sure that it particularly contributes to the good safety record, since most of the fatals are pilot-induced (just as most of the fatals on the road are driver-induced).