8 ms·

I understand the argument that, once free from work, a number of people will voluntarily choose to work as physicists or playwrights or mathematicians. What I

I understand the argument that, once free from work, a number of people will voluntarily choose to work as physicists or playwrights or mathematicians. What I haven’t understood, though, is why someone would choose to work as a bricklayer or spend their 20s sitting in a fluorescent office designing an industrial process to make ball-bearing lubricant 0.4% more efficient. It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor that our society and quality of life is built on.

adrianN 8y ago
If people didn't have to work, the unappealing work that still needs to be done would probably pay a lot more than it does today.
- Siecje 8y ago
  But it might not be worth it, to make that bearing more efficient if it costs more.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    True, but maybe such inefficiencies are counteracted by the increased number of people in fun jobs. Maybe it suddenly becomes worth it to do things we're currently not doing.
mcphage 8y ago
> It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor that our society and quality of life is built on. It's also that sort of labor that has been—and will continue to be—replaced by robots. As for why someone would do that? Well, you still get paid your UBI even if you have a job. So they would do that for the same reason anyone does that—they want the money.
magduf 8y ago
That's because, for some strange reason, you're confusing UBI with some idealized form of communism. UBI is Universal Basic Income. The keyword here is "basic". If you sit on your ass and collect UBI, you should receive enough money to let you live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and get some crappy food to eat at the local crappy grocery store. Do you want to live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and not be able to afford to eat at a nice restaurant? Me neither. If you want extra luxuries, you have to work more, to make more money. That's UBI in a nutshell.
- rc_hadoken 8y ago
  Some people have no conception of crappy. I do get your point.
  - praha14 8y ago
    I live in a van where my total expenses amount to $100/month; I quit my job the day I had accumulated enough savings to sustain this lifestyle indefinitely. The amount of money that is worth giving up 5/7ths of your life is somewhere in the tens of millions.
- smokeyj 8y ago
  Do UBI supporters intentionally not understand supply and demand? Who wants to work at a restaurant if they don’t have to? Who will lay bricks and take out the trash if they don’t have to? The idea that UBi can help people find fulfilling work leads to the question of who does the unfulfilling work.
  - dx034 8y ago
    In Europe, you already have some sort of UBI in most states. While it's often required that you actively look for a job, it isn't hard to get companies not to hire you. And yet, most people are actively looking for work. Because sitting at home all day for years is often worse than doing a menial job. As a side note, working in a restaurant doesn't have to be a bad job. In the US it's often associated with low pay but there are a lot of people actually enjoying it (I know some).
  - magduf 8y ago
    Do UBI haters intentionally not understand wanting to have a better life? People will work at a restaurant if they don't have to so they can afford a place without crappy roommates, or in a better part of town. It's really that simple. You work, even at a crappy job, and now you have more money than you get with the UBI alone. Is this really such a hard concept for you?
    - 8y ago
jnwatson 8y ago
At one point in my life, I voluntarily gave up my job writing software to go sell it, even though I preferred the former. Why? To make more money. It is true there are some folks who are fine with making the minimum, however I’d wager most would take a job to increase their income significantly.
realusername 8y ago
If the work isn't interesting, it just means the employer will need to pay more to attract people, UBI isn't a world without salaries.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
slx26 8y ago
Most people is not extremely bright. It can be very frustrating to attempt complicated things and not succeed. Even most bright people would rather do something boring from time to time. Maybe many "boring" jobs would get better social recognition, and would be seen as a contribution. Maybe we would develop a sense of duty towards that. Maybe many people would even do some of those jobs for free. Maybe people will start trying out many different jobs, changing between them a lot. Maybe jobs would change and become way more diverse: fun things on mondays and tuesdays; wednesdays reserved for the most boring tasks. We will never know without trying. There are many objective issues with UBI, but many of the problems we imagine are just due to our lack of imagination to see the ways in which society might evolve around them.

adrianN 8y ago

If people didn't have to work, the unappealing work that still needs to be done would probably pay a lot more than it does today.

Siecje 8y ago
But it might not be worth it, to make that bearing more efficient if it costs more.
- adrianN 8y ago
  True, but maybe such inefficiencies are counteracted by the increased number of people in fun jobs. Maybe it suddenly becomes worth it to do things we're currently not doing.

mcphage 8y ago

> It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor that our society and quality of life is built on. It's also that sort of labor that has been—and will continue to be—replaced by robots. As for why someone would do that? Well, you still get paid your UBI even if you have a job. So they would do that for the same reason anyone does that—they want the money.

magduf 8y ago

That's because, for some strange reason, you're confusing UBI with some idealized form of communism. UBI is Universal Basic Income. The keyword here is "basic". If you sit on your ass and collect UBI, you should receive enough money to let you live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and get some crappy food to eat at the local crappy grocery store. Do you want to live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and not be able to afford to eat at a nice restaurant? Me neither. If you want extra luxuries, you have to work more, to make more money. That's UBI in a nutshell.

rc_hadoken 8y ago
Some people have no conception of crappy. I do get your point.
- praha14 8y ago
  I live in a van where my total expenses amount to $100/month; I quit my job the day I had accumulated enough savings to sustain this lifestyle indefinitely. The amount of money that is worth giving up 5/7ths of your life is somewhere in the tens of millions.
smokeyj 8y ago
Do UBI supporters intentionally not understand supply and demand? Who wants to work at a restaurant if they don’t have to? Who will lay bricks and take out the trash if they don’t have to? The idea that UBi can help people find fulfilling work leads to the question of who does the unfulfilling work.
- dx034 8y ago
  In Europe, you already have some sort of UBI in most states. While it's often required that you actively look for a job, it isn't hard to get companies not to hire you. And yet, most people are actively looking for work. Because sitting at home all day for years is often worse than doing a menial job. As a side note, working in a restaurant doesn't have to be a bad job. In the US it's often associated with low pay but there are a lot of people actually enjoying it (I know some).
- magduf 8y ago
  Do UBI haters intentionally not understand wanting to have a better life? People will work at a restaurant if they don't have to so they can afford a place without crappy roommates, or in a better part of town. It's really that simple. You work, even at a crappy job, and now you have more money than you get with the UBI alone. Is this really such a hard concept for you?
  - 8y ago

jnwatson 8y ago

At one point in my life, I voluntarily gave up my job writing software to go sell it, even though I preferred the former. Why? To make more money. It is true there are some folks who are fine with making the minimum, however I’d wager most would take a job to increase their income significantly.

realusername 8y ago

If the work isn't interesting, it just means the employer will need to pay more to attract people, UBI isn't a world without salaries.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

slx26 8y ago

Most people is not extremely bright. It can be very frustrating to attempt complicated things and not succeed. Even most bright people would rather do something boring from time to time. Maybe many "boring" jobs would get better social recognition, and would be seen as a contribution. Maybe we would develop a sense of duty towards that. Maybe many people would even do some of those jobs for free. Maybe people will start trying out many different jobs, changing between them a lot. Maybe jobs would change and become way more diverse: fun things on mondays and tuesdays; wednesdays reserved for the most boring tasks. We will never know without trying. There are many objective issues with UBI, but many of the problems we imagine are just due to our lack of imagination to see the ways in which society might evolve around them.