5 ms·

All of the complaining is just a tantrum fit of an emotionally immature industry who, just like a spoiled child has had it very easy so far. "Why aren't there

by raducu 9y ago

All of the complaining is just a tantrum fit of an emotionally immature industry who, just like a spoiled child has had it very easy so far. "Why aren't there 100x more people than I actually need (because we only hire top 1%, right?) with 100 years of working experience with this technology that I just dreamt last night that want to work for free?"

cornholio 9y ago
Developers have a similar attitude, despite currently being one of the most privileged segments of the workforce save perhaps investment bankers. We have a straightforward professional path that does not require massive debt and burning half of our youth doing academic busywork and entry level drudgery - like it happens in almost any other professional field with similar compensation. The industry requirement to prove that you can produce software is not unreasonable, coding is a craft and selecting developers is like selecting painters: ability to bullshit your way through an interview is orthogonal to the skill.
- threatofrain 9y ago
  I might assert that what developers have is not a privilege. A privilege is something granted out of generosity or grace by another party, perhaps even undue (and hence the grace). What developers have is some "game", which makes them a "player". As soon as they lose their game, they cease to be players. Their relation to the game is exactly their value and nothing less. Tech employers are higher level players who know that the economy takes no excuses, and they will trim the fat, so to speak, of anyone who cannot contribute to their gamesmanship. Generally, in most industries, seniority is respected in and of itself. But in software, you see disgraced older people who didn't play the game right, and you wonder if they are to decline away out of sight. That suggests this is not grace granted by another party. Does that look more like a privilege granted (by whom? charitable businesses?), or a loser in a cold and harsh game? I see more question marks over the futures of software people than I see in other industries where other peers have gone. In other industries, I feel there has been more of a multi-factored consideration for the generational passing of the torch. In software, I feel everyone is always in a sink or swim test, and I think older people sink a little more.
  - zero_intp 9y ago
    Very well thought out rebuttal. I live in the convergence between telecom/network engineering and code, and I definitely see the disparity that you describe.
  - scott_s 9y ago
    "Privilege" is not generally understood to be granted out of generosity or grace. The dictionary definition is "a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most" (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege http://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege) which sounds like it applies to software developers when compared to the rest of the workforce. One can enjoy a privilege even if it wasn't intentionally granted by another party. And I certainly feel privileged compared to most of my friends and family members who do not work in the software world. I agree we have a problem with age discrimination, but I can't conclude if our problem is any better or worse than the rest of the work force.
    - threatofrain 9y ago
      I thought of undue grace or generosity because typically the term is used to criticize the unmeritorious for undue position -- is it not? What does it mean if I say you are privileged? When one looks further at the definitions listed for privilege, one sees examples discussing kings and royalty for birthrights. If we're discussing whether people are unworthy, then we are on the same page.
      - scott_s 9y ago
        To me, "undue grace" and "generosity" imply some actor who imparts such grace or generosity. But that's not required for privilege. Particularly when people talk about enjoying a privilege in the social-justice way (which I believe to the kind of criticism you're talking about), they're often using it to mean a lack of discrimination as opposed to granting an elevated status. For example, if someone has the expectation that they can walk through a store without getting harassed, we may say they enjoy a privilege, even though most people would agree that should be the norm - because there are people who do expect to get harassed. The reason I think it's important to remove an actor who grants privilege is that its causes are often structural and implicit, as opposed to intentional and explicit. And it's less a criticism than it is a way of pointing out that some people's default expectations for how the world works and will react to them is quite different from others. Put another way, privilege is often used when some people tend to experience a fairer world than others. But expecting a fair world is how it should be! That's not "undue grace", as everyone should experience a fair world. (Just so we're clear: this is a full-on semantic discussion, and I'm okay with that.)
- gowld 9y ago
  Programmer is one of the only jobs where you have to actually show work related talent in an interview. Some jobs have strong credentials, most jobs it's bullshitting and resume.
- gaius 9y ago
  investment bankers. We have a straightforward professional path that does not require massive debt and burning half of our youth doing academic busywork and entry level drudgery You’ve never worked in banking I see. There’s a 3-5 year grind of doing nothing but updating Excel sheets 80-100 hours/week at entry level. Pay is decent for the 1-in-10 that make it through this stage (i.e to Associate 3 and up) but the hours are still long and the work dull. And there’s nothing at all straightforward about guessing which language or “framework” will be fashionable next...

by raducu 9y ago

cornholio 9y ago

Developers have a similar attitude, despite currently being one of the most privileged segments of the workforce save perhaps investment bankers. We have a straightforward professional path that does not require massive debt and burning half of our youth doing academic busywork and entry level drudgery - like it happens in almost any other professional field with similar compensation. The industry requirement to prove that you can produce software is not unreasonable, coding is a craft and selecting developers is like selecting painters: ability to bullshit your way through an interview is orthogonal to the skill.

threatofrain 9y ago
I might assert that what developers have is not a privilege. A privilege is something granted out of generosity or grace by another party, perhaps even undue (and hence the grace). What developers have is some "game", which makes them a "player". As soon as they lose their game, they cease to be players. Their relation to the game is exactly their value and nothing less. Tech employers are higher level players who know that the economy takes no excuses, and they will trim the fat, so to speak, of anyone who cannot contribute to their gamesmanship. Generally, in most industries, seniority is respected in and of itself. But in software, you see disgraced older people who didn't play the game right, and you wonder if they are to decline away out of sight. That suggests this is not grace granted by another party. Does that look more like a privilege granted (by whom? charitable businesses?), or a loser in a cold and harsh game? I see more question marks over the futures of software people than I see in other industries where other peers have gone. In other industries, I feel there has been more of a multi-factored consideration for the generational passing of the torch. In software, I feel everyone is always in a sink or swim test, and I think older people sink a little more.
- zero_intp 9y ago
  Very well thought out rebuttal. I live in the convergence between telecom/network engineering and code, and I definitely see the disparity that you describe.
- scott_s 9y ago
  "Privilege" is not generally understood to be granted out of generosity or grace. The dictionary definition is "a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most" (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege http://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege) which sounds like it applies to software developers when compared to the rest of the workforce. One can enjoy a privilege even if it wasn't intentionally granted by another party. And I certainly feel privileged compared to most of my friends and family members who do not work in the software world. I agree we have a problem with age discrimination, but I can't conclude if our problem is any better or worse than the rest of the work force.
  - threatofrain 9y ago
    I thought of undue grace or generosity because typically the term is used to criticize the unmeritorious for undue position -- is it not? What does it mean if I say you are privileged? When one looks further at the definitions listed for privilege, one sees examples discussing kings and royalty for birthrights. If we're discussing whether people are unworthy, then we are on the same page.
    - scott_s 9y ago
      To me, "undue grace" and "generosity" imply some actor who imparts such grace or generosity. But that's not required for privilege. Particularly when people talk about enjoying a privilege in the social-justice way (which I believe to the kind of criticism you're talking about), they're often using it to mean a lack of discrimination as opposed to granting an elevated status. For example, if someone has the expectation that they can walk through a store without getting harassed, we may say they enjoy a privilege, even though most people would agree that should be the norm - because there are people who do expect to get harassed. The reason I think it's important to remove an actor who grants privilege is that its causes are often structural and implicit, as opposed to intentional and explicit. And it's less a criticism than it is a way of pointing out that some people's default expectations for how the world works and will react to them is quite different from others. Put another way, privilege is often used when some people tend to experience a fairer world than others. But expecting a fair world is how it should be! That's not "undue grace", as everyone should experience a fair world. (Just so we're clear: this is a full-on semantic discussion, and I'm okay with that.)
gowld 9y ago
Programmer is one of the only jobs where you have to actually show work related talent in an interview. Some jobs have strong credentials, most jobs it's bullshitting and resume.
gaius 9y ago
investment bankers. We have a straightforward professional path that does not require massive debt and burning half of our youth doing academic busywork and entry level drudgery You’ve never worked in banking I see. There’s a 3-5 year grind of doing nothing but updating Excel sheets 80-100 hours/week at entry level. Pay is decent for the 1-in-10 that make it through this stage (i.e to Associate 3 and up) but the hours are still long and the work dull. And there’s nothing at all straightforward about guessing which language or “framework” will be fashionable next...