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> Dockless bikes and scooters are not actually the problem. > For decades now, cars have gotten the royal treatment. Users were able to pick up their cars and

> Dockless bikes and scooters are not actually the problem. > For decades now, cars have gotten the royal treatment. Users were able to pick up their cars and drop them off anywhere in the city. It was simply expected that anywhere one goes in a city, one could be guaranteed a free, giant space to park one’s private 4000 pound box, no questions asked. Sure, in some dense areas, payment is now required. Yet private vehicle parking is basically considered a right. We know this because when we can’t find parking for more than two minutes, we get upset. 5 minutes? We get very upset. Isn't this a false comparison? You're not allowed to park your car in any random place you like, you're required to park in specially marked and designated areas. For instance, I can't park my car in the middle of a street or in a park without getting it ticketed and towed. Isn't the big nuisance of dockless bikes that they are literally littered on sidewalks and other public spaces? I don't recall there being any uproar about docked bike rentals, which are much more comparable to the current situation with cars.

lovich 9y ago
People keep posting about "dockless cars" when these situations come up, some how ignoreing that vehicles are parked in designated areas as you said, and that it's people's personal vehicles and not companies private fleets that they are charging use for. I think that modern cities have way too much space allocated to car parking but it is in no way equivalent to a company pushing off one of their major costs onto society
- Johnny555 9y ago
  it's people's personal vehicles and not companies private fleets that they are charging use for. Isn't that worse? If they were car share cars, then at least local residents would be able to use them, but instead, all of those cars parked on city streets are usable by only a single person each. For example, the city street I used to live on had around 250 housing units and about 40 street parking spaces. It would have been nicer if those 40 cars were car-share cars rather than being tied up by the 40 residents that got there first.
  - lovich 9y ago
    No I don't believe that at all. Part of the money you pay for share cars would be going into someone's pockets. It's literally a negative externality that they are pushing onto society. Sometimes those negative externalities are worth the benefits that a business brings around but that's not a garunteed or even common occurrence and it shouldn't just be assumed to be a positive
    - Johnny555 9y ago
      Part of the money that I pay for my own car goes in someone's pockets, so I don't understand why that matters. But when I lived in that city, I'd have paid far less overall if I used car-share instead of owning my own car. When I park my own car on the public street, that space is dedicated 100% to me. When a car-share car is parked there, then several people benefit from that space.
rhcom2 9y ago
People were upset the docks were taking up parking and/or drop off space.
justjash 9y ago
I think part of the problem is the lack of space to "park" a bike. You might be lucky to find one or maybe two bike racks per block compared to how many parking spaces? If I ride my bike to the bar to meet a couple friends I might have to lock my bike up a block or two away because that is the only rack around.
- s0rce 9y ago
  If that, I often find I have to lock my bike to a street sign or parking meter frequently.
  - freeone3000 9y ago
    Parking meters in Montreal have bike rings. It's ingenious, in a sense.
btrettel 9y ago
> You're not allowed to park your car in any random place you like You can probably get away with parking illegally more often than you imagine. (Note that I'm not saying that you should, or excusing bad behavior from dockless bike users.) Take an example from the article: cars illegally parked in the bike lane. In my experience* most drivers who park in the bike lane do so out of convenience, not a lack of options. I imagine the same is true for dockless bikes/scooters. Many people are either oblivious or aware but don't care that others are irritated or harmed. * Which may differ from yours. See here for details: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16603294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16603294
- gamblor956 9y ago
  It is not illegal to park a car in the bike lane in California. https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/traffic_lanes https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/traffic_l...
  - fakename 9y ago
    I'm having a hard time imagining how you could park in a bike lane without blocking bicyclists. "You may park in a bicycle lane if your vehicle does not block a bicyclist and/or there is not a “No Parking” sign posted."
    - Spivak 9y ago
      We have the same law in my city. The answer is that, and I'm honestly not trying to be snarky here, the bike lanes are very often deserted. The seem to be placed in areas and roads that are woefully inappropriate so that some city planner can go to a conference a talk about how green and progressive the city is.
      - btrettel 9y ago
        I'm a cyclist, and I largely agree. I think it might come more down to meeting some sort of quota, but the goal of "looking progressive/green" is still the main motivation. Many bike lanes Austin has added or "enhanced" in the past 5 years I've lived here were wastes of time and money, or even worse than what was present before. The cycle track on Guadalupe is a good example of an "improvement" that was actually worse. It's not deserted, but I almost never use it because it makes cyclists much less visible. Far too often a driver will turn without checking for oncoming cyclists. No thanks, I take the lane. Not that I'm that much slower than traffic there anyway. The speed limit is 35 mph and it's downhill, so going 30 mph isn't that hard. It would have made a lot more sense to add the cycle track on the uphill side of the road, though that wouldn't solve the visibility problem. (The installation of the cycle track also greatly increased the number of wrong-way cyclists. I've found that these cyclists firmly believe that going the wrong way is safer. The statistics show quite clearly otherwise.) I think a better solution is for drivers to get used to cyclists being on the road. Driving slower for a couple minutes at most before you can safely pass a cyclist is nowhere near as bad as most drivers seem to think it is. Some drivers become livid...
Finnucane 9y ago
In NYC, there were a few fights over docked bike rentals. For example: http://gothamist.com/2013/04/30/west_village_nimbys_file_futile_law.php http://gothamist.com/2013/04/30/west_village_nimbys_file_fut... But even for regular bikes, it can be an issue when there is not enough parking. Here in Cambridge, over the last few years, the city has installed a fairly large number of parking rings for locking up bikes, and it still can't keep up. And don't even get me started on parking lots at supermarkets, etc., that don't have any racks or have crappy racks made for kids' bikes.
- btrettel 9y ago
  The terrible quality bike racks are a major problem. Thanks for pointing this problem out. I'm particularly irritated by racks which are so close to buildings that they can only be used at half capacity. Whoever installed them obviously has no idea how they are used. In Austin, many bike racks also are coated in bird poop, though I'm not sure what can be done about this aside from regularly cleaning the racks. I never ran into this problem anywhere else.
  - bsder 9y ago
    > In Austin, many bike racks also are coated in bird poop, though I'm not sure what can be done about this aside from regularly cleaning the racks. I never ran into this problem anywhere else. Presumably because the racks are underneath trees or shade (which the grackles also like) to avoid baking your bike in the sun. Austin gets really hot in the summer and non-reflective surfaces can get hot enough to impart burns.
IAmEveryone 9y ago
Sure, let's devote two lanes on every road to bike parking and I will never again leave a bike in unmarked spaces. Add two lanes for riding the bike and I'll also stop interfering with car traffic.
zethraeus 9y ago
Here's some uproar about docked bike rentals: https://sf.curbed.com/2017/7/18/15986716/ford-gobike-mission-gentrification https://sf.curbed.com/2017/7/18/15986716/ford-gobike-mission...
terenig 9y ago
The argument here is that wherever you go in a city, automobile parking is all around. From street parking, to business parking lots, to single family homes with driveways and garages, to large parking structures. Thus, the user experience for drivers is essentially go anywhere, park anywhere. That convenient user experience is what dockless is allowing for. So cities should strive to quickly figure out how to make scooter/bike parking as ubiquitous as cars. The fact that they haven't already done so shows their implicit bias.

lovich 9y ago

People keep posting about "dockless cars" when these situations come up, some how ignoreing that vehicles are parked in designated areas as you said, and that it's people's personal vehicles and not companies private fleets that they are charging use for. I think that modern cities have way too much space allocated to car parking but it is in no way equivalent to a company pushing off one of their major costs onto society

Johnny555 9y ago
it's people's personal vehicles and not companies private fleets that they are charging use for. Isn't that worse? If they were car share cars, then at least local residents would be able to use them, but instead, all of those cars parked on city streets are usable by only a single person each. For example, the city street I used to live on had around 250 housing units and about 40 street parking spaces. It would have been nicer if those 40 cars were car-share cars rather than being tied up by the 40 residents that got there first.
- lovich 9y ago
  No I don't believe that at all. Part of the money you pay for share cars would be going into someone's pockets. It's literally a negative externality that they are pushing onto society. Sometimes those negative externalities are worth the benefits that a business brings around but that's not a garunteed or even common occurrence and it shouldn't just be assumed to be a positive
  - Johnny555 9y ago
    Part of the money that I pay for my own car goes in someone's pockets, so I don't understand why that matters. But when I lived in that city, I'd have paid far less overall if I used car-share instead of owning my own car. When I park my own car on the public street, that space is dedicated 100% to me. When a car-share car is parked there, then several people benefit from that space.

rhcom2 9y ago

People were upset the docks were taking up parking and/or drop off space.

justjash 9y ago

I think part of the problem is the lack of space to "park" a bike. You might be lucky to find one or maybe two bike racks per block compared to how many parking spaces? If I ride my bike to the bar to meet a couple friends I might have to lock my bike up a block or two away because that is the only rack around.

s0rce 9y ago
If that, I often find I have to lock my bike to a street sign or parking meter frequently.
- freeone3000 9y ago
  Parking meters in Montreal have bike rings. It's ingenious, in a sense.

btrettel 9y ago

> You're not allowed to park your car in any random place you like You can probably get away with parking illegally more often than you imagine. (Note that I'm not saying that you should, or excusing bad behavior from dockless bike users.) Take an example from the article: cars illegally parked in the bike lane. In my experience* most drivers who park in the bike lane do so out of convenience, not a lack of options. I imagine the same is true for dockless bikes/scooters. Many people are either oblivious or aware but don't care that others are irritated or harmed. * Which may differ from yours. See here for details: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16603294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16603294

gamblor956 9y ago
It is not illegal to park a car in the bike lane in California. https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/traffic_lanes https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/traffic_l...
- fakename 9y ago
  I'm having a hard time imagining how you could park in a bike lane without blocking bicyclists. "You may park in a bicycle lane if your vehicle does not block a bicyclist and/or there is not a “No Parking” sign posted."
  - Spivak 9y ago
    We have the same law in my city. The answer is that, and I'm honestly not trying to be snarky here, the bike lanes are very often deserted. The seem to be placed in areas and roads that are woefully inappropriate so that some city planner can go to a conference a talk about how green and progressive the city is.
    - btrettel 9y ago
      I'm a cyclist, and I largely agree. I think it might come more down to meeting some sort of quota, but the goal of "looking progressive/green" is still the main motivation. Many bike lanes Austin has added or "enhanced" in the past 5 years I've lived here were wastes of time and money, or even worse than what was present before. The cycle track on Guadalupe is a good example of an "improvement" that was actually worse. It's not deserted, but I almost never use it because it makes cyclists much less visible. Far too often a driver will turn without checking for oncoming cyclists. No thanks, I take the lane. Not that I'm that much slower than traffic there anyway. The speed limit is 35 mph and it's downhill, so going 30 mph isn't that hard. It would have made a lot more sense to add the cycle track on the uphill side of the road, though that wouldn't solve the visibility problem. (The installation of the cycle track also greatly increased the number of wrong-way cyclists. I've found that these cyclists firmly believe that going the wrong way is safer. The statistics show quite clearly otherwise.) I think a better solution is for drivers to get used to cyclists being on the road. Driving slower for a couple minutes at most before you can safely pass a cyclist is nowhere near as bad as most drivers seem to think it is. Some drivers become livid...

Finnucane 9y ago

In NYC, there were a few fights over docked bike rentals. For example: http://gothamist.com/2013/04/30/west_village_nimbys_file_futile_law.php http://gothamist.com/2013/04/30/west_village_nimbys_file_fut... But even for regular bikes, it can be an issue when there is not enough parking. Here in Cambridge, over the last few years, the city has installed a fairly large number of parking rings for locking up bikes, and it still can't keep up. And don't even get me started on parking lots at supermarkets, etc., that don't have any racks or have crappy racks made for kids' bikes.

btrettel 9y ago
The terrible quality bike racks are a major problem. Thanks for pointing this problem out. I'm particularly irritated by racks which are so close to buildings that they can only be used at half capacity. Whoever installed them obviously has no idea how they are used. In Austin, many bike racks also are coated in bird poop, though I'm not sure what can be done about this aside from regularly cleaning the racks. I never ran into this problem anywhere else.
- bsder 9y ago
  > In Austin, many bike racks also are coated in bird poop, though I'm not sure what can be done about this aside from regularly cleaning the racks. I never ran into this problem anywhere else. Presumably because the racks are underneath trees or shade (which the grackles also like) to avoid baking your bike in the sun. Austin gets really hot in the summer and non-reflective surfaces can get hot enough to impart burns.

IAmEveryone 9y ago

Sure, let's devote two lanes on every road to bike parking and I will never again leave a bike in unmarked spaces. Add two lanes for riding the bike and I'll also stop interfering with car traffic.

zethraeus 9y ago

Here's some uproar about docked bike rentals: https://sf.curbed.com/2017/7/18/15986716/ford-gobike-mission-gentrification https://sf.curbed.com/2017/7/18/15986716/ford-gobike-mission...

terenig 9y ago

The argument here is that wherever you go in a city, automobile parking is all around. From street parking, to business parking lots, to single family homes with driveways and garages, to large parking structures. Thus, the user experience for drivers is essentially go anywhere, park anywhere. That convenient user experience is what dockless is allowing for. So cities should strive to quickly figure out how to make scooter/bike parking as ubiquitous as cars. The fact that they haven't already done so shows their implicit bias.