6 ms·

If Hertz or Avis attempted to use public space to park their inventory, local residents and city officials would pitch a fit. Public parking exists for the ben

If Hertz or Avis attempted to use public space to park their inventory, local residents and city officials would pitch a fit. Public parking exists for the benefit of the public at large, not as a cost-saving measure for rental firms. The same is true of bicycles. You can store your private bicycle almost anywhere you like in public. But city fathers will naturally take a dim view of a business using that public space without permission.

gkoberger 8y ago
You mean... like Getaround and Zipcar already do? The streets are filled with companies using public spaces: Fedex deliveries blocking the road, sidewalk signs for bars, Getaround rentals, food carts, mailboxes, ATMs, parking meters, Scoot scooters, taxi lines, Lyft/Ubers, Redbox DVD rentals, annoying Greenpeace petition people, construction, billboards, etc. I don't think it's a cost-saving measure for scooter/bike companies, but rather convenience for users. I wouldn't use scooters if I had to walk 4 blocks to a "designated pickup zone". Yes, these scooters/bikes are making money. But they also really improve cities, by cutting down on traffic congestion and car emissions. As long as they're regulated via permits (meaning the government makes a bit of money to pay for maintenance), they should be allowed... and if people dislike them, they'll go out of business, and it'll solve itself.
- terenig 8y ago
  Yep! And even rental car companies do take advantage of public parking: when cars are actually in use, customers are free to park them in any public parking spot.
- extra88 8y ago
  Zipcar pays for the parking spots they use. Obviously, while they’re being rented the drivers may use public spots the same as car owners do.
  - gkoberger 8y ago
    And Bird is paying (or offering to, at least) $1/scooter/day to SF. That's $365/scooter/year. I've heard Zipcar pays SF $1000-ish/year, so inch-for-inch it's certainly a good deal.
    - extra88 8y ago
      In the greater Boston area, I think I've only seen Zipcar spots on private property (though I'm not sure what the ownership is of the MBTA parking spaces) and I would expect the rate to be somewhat negotiable, based on supply & demand for the neighborhood.
      - kingbirdy 8y ago
        Same in Philadelphia
        jarvuschris 8y ago
        There are some zipcar spots on streets in Philly
        mentalpiracy 8y ago
        Enterprise has a few streetside too. Almost assuredly, these companies pay Philly for the rights to that those marked spots.
      - jonknee 8y ago
        There are car sharing services in Seattle that operate much like the scooters and bikes (park them in any city space, pay just for when you use, etc). The city charges a flat rate per car per month. Like dockless bike share it ends up being way more useful.
        badwolf 8y ago
        I love Car2Go here in Austin. They pay the city some flatrate per year, and so car2go can park anywhere in public street parking without paying meters.
- jjoske 8y ago
  Well where I live (Melbourne, Aus) what a assume are the equivalent to Zipcar actually buy/rent car spaces to leave for their cars.
- dwighttk 8y ago
  >Yes, these scooters/bikes are making money. Are they? Are any of the companies public? It seems like a burn through cash to get a user base sort of thing but maybe these companies are older and more established than it seems to me.
  - F_r_k 8y ago
    Are you required to be public in order to make money ?
    - d_k_f 8y ago
      No, but it would make it possible to actually check whether they do or not, which I guess is why parent is asking.
      - dwighttk 8y ago
        yeah, just gives you numbers you can look at vs. just guessing.
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  Fedex deliveries blocking the road for a short time are generally considered preferable to removing a whack of on-street parking from every block in order to have an excess of loading zones, or not being able to have deliveries at all. sidewalk signs for bars are regulated, at least in my city. They have to leave (IIRC) 6' of clearance on the sidewalk so they don't obstruct pedestrian traffic. Whether those rules are being followed is perhaps another issue, but I haven't generally found them to be a nuisance. Getaround rentals are private cars that you rent from the owner. If the city requires a fee to be paid for overnight on-street parking, that fee will be paid by the owner. If the street is meter parking, that fee will be paid by whoever is using the car. food carts typically pay the city a fee in exchange for use of public space. mailboxes are either owned by the government or installed on private property. ATMs are installed on private property. parking meters are government property. Scoot scooters (don't know what those are) taxi lines are a government designated thing. Note that most cities that have them also make money from taxi licensing. Lyft/Ubers are a minor menace, I agree with you on that one. Redbox DVD rentals are installed on private property. annoying Greenpeace petition people are required to get permits, at least in my city. construction also requires permits. billboards are installed on private property. Long story short, I think you're being hyperbolic here.
  - s0rce 8y ago
    "Fedex deliveries blocking the road" Preferable to cars, maybe, since it frees up parking, however, around here they simply park in the bike lane. I go by a UPS store daily and there are often 1-2 trucks both parked in the bike lane.
    - icantdrive55 8y ago
      I kinda get the need for commercial drivers to not obey laws most of us are scared of. They are being overworked because of us, and our convient buying patterns. That said, I would love to see fees/fines for mini code violations tied to a person's/company's Income. I get a $50 parking ticket. Why--because I'm poor. (My biggest fear is getting a ticket. These high priced tickets are a real concern for people like myself.) FedEx would get a $10,000 ticket. I would do like to see fees/fines tied to income. And "we don't have the technology" is no an excuse anymore.
- Angostura 8y ago
  Certainly, where I live in London, Zipcar has arranged with the council to have special bays marked, reserved for them. The council like car-sharing, so are happy - but it is done in a manageable way.
  - onion2k 8y ago
    I would how risky that is for Zipcar. What incentive would there be for the council to say no to a competitor offering more money for the spaces?
    - gcb0 8y ago
      uk gov might not work like a greed corporation as its usa counterparts. usually when a deal is stabilished with one company, others can jump in for the same price/share. the worst that would happen for zip car is to have to share the spaces.
  - obel1x 8y ago
    There is also Zipcar Flex in London. You can park the cars in on-street parking, even paid or residents bays. But they have only agreed it with some councils so far. Map: https://www.zipcar.co.uk/takethebluepin#zipzone-map https://www.zipcar.co.uk/takethebluepin#zipzone-map
- erdojo 8y ago
  Yet another clueless astroturfer who alters the facts to fit your own narrative. Go back to your PR boss and tell them we're not buying your "messaging".
Spooky23 8y ago
Hertz and Avis have spots near downtown hotels in my city. It’s an easy problem for cities to regulate.
burlesona 8y ago
Cities also force all property owners to provide many “private” parking spaces for the use of whoever’s car may need a place to sit. The space they take up generally makes life worse for all other users of the street. The nuisance of these little scooters is trivial in comparison.
blang 8y ago
Car2Go does this, well sort of. In Seattle the company pays about $1300 [1] per car per year for parking, which includes skipping metered parking, which could come to a pretty large subsidy [1] https://www.seattletimes.com/business/car2go-a-handy-option-but-it-doesnrsquot-come-cheap/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/car2go-a-handy-option-...
dcosson 8y ago
> Public parking exists for the benefit of the public at large This is the point under contention. I strongy disagree, I would very happily give up public parking for other uses of that space - more bike/scooter lanes that can be further offset from fast-moving cars, dedicated space for Uber/Lyft dropoffs that don't block the roads, 5-minute loading/unloading parking for Fedex trucks and Postmates delivery people to idle for a few minutes. Free (or heavily subsidized) parking for private cars is at the bottom of this list for me. It's also much more expensive to provide than these other things, because there's only one person benefitting from each parking space per few hours while all the others can benefit many more people. And even for the very drivers that street parking is intended to benefit - in lots of situations there are too few spaces on the street at all, so we're blocking this valuable space and most people won't find a spot anyway and will be forced to use a private garage. And it's not that I never drive, I sometimes do, I still think it's a much better use of public space if I had to find a private lot or garage on the occasions when I drive so that these other things can be available to everyone.
- paulgb 8y ago
  Exactly. I'd add to this that benefiting the public at large vs. a company isn't exactly clear-cut. If I don't own a car, free parking doesn't benefit me directly, but having that space used for bikeshare docks does (even if this also benefits the bikeshare company). You could just as easily argue that free parking benefits Ford since it makes driving more feasible.
Zigurd 8y ago
Uber? You may say "Uber is just a platform" but they use public facilities as well as private cars. That User car takes up as much space as 20+ dockless ebikes.
astura 8y ago
Hertz and Avis don't park their fleet in public spaces because it would be bad for business. You want to rent a car? Gotta walk four blocks to pick it up.
jonemo 8y ago
> If Hertz or Avis attempted to use public space to park their inventory, local residents and city officials would pitch a fit. I don't have a counter-example for your very specific statement, but these are close: * The car rental company "Rent a Wreck" in San Francisco drives between 5 and 20 of their camper vehicles off the lot and parks them in public parking spaces every morning around 7am and brings them back in in the evening. Reported to 311, "not enforceable". * The Enterprise car rental branch at the Amtrak station in Emeryville, CA, routinely blocks a bike lane and public parking spots with rental vehicles. They also perform vehicle inspections and handovers there. No outrage, in fact Emeryville doesn't enforce parking in bike lanes or at red curbs, period. * "Global Gourmet Catering" in San Francisco backs rental trucks into their loading bay such that the entire sidewalk, the entire bike lane, and up to half a traffic lane is blocked approximately every second day. In the evenings the same trucks are parked in public diagonal parking spots sized for passenger vehicles across the street, blocking the side walk and bike lane in the other direction. Reported to 311, forwarded to parking enforcement, won't enforce because blocked sidewalks and blocked bike lanes are handled by different people, and this involves both. * "Enclosures International Corporation" in San Francisco basically runs a fulfillment operation with frequent forklift traffic on a public sidewalk and the bike lane. Super dangerous actually, because it forces cyclists to cross defunct train tracks in the traffic lane at a sharp angle. When the fork lifts aren't there, the Audi Q7 of one of their employees still blocks the sidewalk. Reported to 311, you can guess the outcome. I asked @sf311 on Twitter why these things don't get enforced, but parking scooters on sidewalks does [0]. The answer: > These scooters do not have a license plate. So it does not fall under SFMTA DPT. > DPW BSM permits use of and enforces ordinances regarding public areas, as pertains to blocking items that don't have a license. [0]: https://twitter.com/jonemo/status/985989669895553024 https://twitter.com/jonemo/status/985989669895553024
- hvidgaard 8y ago
  > I asked @sf311 on Twitter why these things don't get enforced, but parking scooters on sidewalks does [0]. The answer: >> These scooters do not have a license plate. So it does not fall under SFMTA DPT. >> DPW BSM permits use of and enforces ordinances regarding public areas, as pertains to blocking items that don't have a license. > [0]: https://twitter.com/jonemo/status/985989669895553024 https://twitter.com/jonemo/status/985989669895553024 Excellent example of Red Tape in the wild.
cup-of-tea 8y ago
A small business with a fleet of vans will take up more public space than a much larger fleet of dockless bicycles. Private cars are the worst offenders, though. This is just another case of people being blind to the convenience and privilege they already have and kicking off when other people attempt to get such convenience.
pmontra 8y ago
Car sharing companies do that around the world all the time: people park the cars of those companies among privately owned cars. In my country those companies pay a license to city councils and get the right to enter limited traffic zones and park in areas that require a fee. Bike sharing companies pay a license too.
terenig 8y ago
Rental car companies actually do utilize public parking: when cars are rented out, customers are free to park them in any public parking spot. These are businesses that are freely using public space.

gkoberger 8y ago

You mean... like Getaround and Zipcar already do? The streets are filled with companies using public spaces: Fedex deliveries blocking the road, sidewalk signs for bars, Getaround rentals, food carts, mailboxes, ATMs, parking meters, Scoot scooters, taxi lines, Lyft/Ubers, Redbox DVD rentals, annoying Greenpeace petition people, construction, billboards, etc. I don't think it's a cost-saving measure for scooter/bike companies, but rather convenience for users. I wouldn't use scooters if I had to walk 4 blocks to a "designated pickup zone". Yes, these scooters/bikes are making money. But they also really improve cities, by cutting down on traffic congestion and car emissions. As long as they're regulated via permits (meaning the government makes a bit of money to pay for maintenance), they should be allowed... and if people dislike them, they'll go out of business, and it'll solve itself.

terenig 8y ago
Yep! And even rental car companies do take advantage of public parking: when cars are actually in use, customers are free to park them in any public parking spot.
extra88 8y ago
Zipcar pays for the parking spots they use. Obviously, while they’re being rented the drivers may use public spots the same as car owners do.
- gkoberger 8y ago
  And Bird is paying (or offering to, at least) $1/scooter/day to SF. That's $365/scooter/year. I've heard Zipcar pays SF $1000-ish/year, so inch-for-inch it's certainly a good deal.
  - extra88 8y ago
    In the greater Boston area, I think I've only seen Zipcar spots on private property (though I'm not sure what the ownership is of the MBTA parking spaces) and I would expect the rate to be somewhat negotiable, based on supply & demand for the neighborhood.
    - kingbirdy 8y ago
      Same in Philadelphia
      - jarvuschris 8y ago
        There are some zipcar spots on streets in Philly
        mentalpiracy 8y ago
        Enterprise has a few streetside too. Almost assuredly, these companies pay Philly for the rights to that those marked spots.
    - jonknee 8y ago
      There are car sharing services in Seattle that operate much like the scooters and bikes (park them in any city space, pay just for when you use, etc). The city charges a flat rate per car per month. Like dockless bike share it ends up being way more useful.
      - badwolf 8y ago
        I love Car2Go here in Austin. They pay the city some flatrate per year, and so car2go can park anywhere in public street parking without paying meters.
jjoske 8y ago
Well where I live (Melbourne, Aus) what a assume are the equivalent to Zipcar actually buy/rent car spaces to leave for their cars.
dwighttk 8y ago
>Yes, these scooters/bikes are making money. Are they? Are any of the companies public? It seems like a burn through cash to get a user base sort of thing but maybe these companies are older and more established than it seems to me.
- F_r_k 8y ago
  Are you required to be public in order to make money ?
  - d_k_f 8y ago
    No, but it would make it possible to actually check whether they do or not, which I guess is why parent is asking.
    - dwighttk 8y ago
      yeah, just gives you numbers you can look at vs. just guessing.
bunderbunder 8y ago
Fedex deliveries blocking the road for a short time are generally considered preferable to removing a whack of on-street parking from every block in order to have an excess of loading zones, or not being able to have deliveries at all. sidewalk signs for bars are regulated, at least in my city. They have to leave (IIRC) 6' of clearance on the sidewalk so they don't obstruct pedestrian traffic. Whether those rules are being followed is perhaps another issue, but I haven't generally found them to be a nuisance. Getaround rentals are private cars that you rent from the owner. If the city requires a fee to be paid for overnight on-street parking, that fee will be paid by the owner. If the street is meter parking, that fee will be paid by whoever is using the car. food carts typically pay the city a fee in exchange for use of public space. mailboxes are either owned by the government or installed on private property. ATMs are installed on private property. parking meters are government property. Scoot scooters (don't know what those are) taxi lines are a government designated thing. Note that most cities that have them also make money from taxi licensing. Lyft/Ubers are a minor menace, I agree with you on that one. Redbox DVD rentals are installed on private property. annoying Greenpeace petition people are required to get permits, at least in my city. construction also requires permits. billboards are installed on private property. Long story short, I think you're being hyperbolic here.
- s0rce 8y ago
  "Fedex deliveries blocking the road" Preferable to cars, maybe, since it frees up parking, however, around here they simply park in the bike lane. I go by a UPS store daily and there are often 1-2 trucks both parked in the bike lane.
  - icantdrive55 8y ago
    I kinda get the need for commercial drivers to not obey laws most of us are scared of. They are being overworked because of us, and our convient buying patterns. That said, I would love to see fees/fines for mini code violations tied to a person's/company's Income. I get a $50 parking ticket. Why--because I'm poor. (My biggest fear is getting a ticket. These high priced tickets are a real concern for people like myself.) FedEx would get a $10,000 ticket. I would do like to see fees/fines tied to income. And "we don't have the technology" is no an excuse anymore.
Angostura 8y ago
Certainly, where I live in London, Zipcar has arranged with the council to have special bays marked, reserved for them. The council like car-sharing, so are happy - but it is done in a manageable way.
- onion2k 8y ago
  I would how risky that is for Zipcar. What incentive would there be for the council to say no to a competitor offering more money for the spaces?
  - gcb0 8y ago
    uk gov might not work like a greed corporation as its usa counterparts. usually when a deal is stabilished with one company, others can jump in for the same price/share. the worst that would happen for zip car is to have to share the spaces.
- obel1x 8y ago
  There is also Zipcar Flex in London. You can park the cars in on-street parking, even paid or residents bays. But they have only agreed it with some councils so far. Map: https://www.zipcar.co.uk/takethebluepin#zipzone-map https://www.zipcar.co.uk/takethebluepin#zipzone-map
erdojo 8y ago
Yet another clueless astroturfer who alters the facts to fit your own narrative. Go back to your PR boss and tell them we're not buying your "messaging".

Spooky23 8y ago

Hertz and Avis have spots near downtown hotels in my city. It’s an easy problem for cities to regulate.

burlesona 8y ago

Cities also force all property owners to provide many “private” parking spaces for the use of whoever’s car may need a place to sit. The space they take up generally makes life worse for all other users of the street. The nuisance of these little scooters is trivial in comparison.

blang 8y ago

Car2Go does this, well sort of. In Seattle the company pays about $1300 [1] per car per year for parking, which includes skipping metered parking, which could come to a pretty large subsidy [1] https://www.seattletimes.com/business/car2go-a-handy-option-but-it-doesnrsquot-come-cheap/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/car2go-a-handy-option-...

dcosson 8y ago

> Public parking exists for the benefit of the public at large This is the point under contention. I strongy disagree, I would very happily give up public parking for other uses of that space - more bike/scooter lanes that can be further offset from fast-moving cars, dedicated space for Uber/Lyft dropoffs that don't block the roads, 5-minute loading/unloading parking for Fedex trucks and Postmates delivery people to idle for a few minutes. Free (or heavily subsidized) parking for private cars is at the bottom of this list for me. It's also much more expensive to provide than these other things, because there's only one person benefitting from each parking space per few hours while all the others can benefit many more people. And even for the very drivers that street parking is intended to benefit - in lots of situations there are too few spaces on the street at all, so we're blocking this valuable space and most people won't find a spot anyway and will be forced to use a private garage. And it's not that I never drive, I sometimes do, I still think it's a much better use of public space if I had to find a private lot or garage on the occasions when I drive so that these other things can be available to everyone.

paulgb 8y ago
Exactly. I'd add to this that benefiting the public at large vs. a company isn't exactly clear-cut. If I don't own a car, free parking doesn't benefit me directly, but having that space used for bikeshare docks does (even if this also benefits the bikeshare company). You could just as easily argue that free parking benefits Ford since it makes driving more feasible.

Zigurd 8y ago

Uber? You may say "Uber is just a platform" but they use public facilities as well as private cars. That User car takes up as much space as 20+ dockless ebikes.

astura 8y ago

Hertz and Avis don't park their fleet in public spaces because it would be bad for business. You want to rent a car? Gotta walk four blocks to pick it up.

jonemo 8y ago

> If Hertz or Avis attempted to use public space to park their inventory, local residents and city officials would pitch a fit. I don't have a counter-example for your very specific statement, but these are close: * The car rental company "Rent a Wreck" in San Francisco drives between 5 and 20 of their camper vehicles off the lot and parks them in public parking spaces every morning around 7am and brings them back in in the evening. Reported to 311, "not enforceable". * The Enterprise car rental branch at the Amtrak station in Emeryville, CA, routinely blocks a bike lane and public parking spots with rental vehicles. They also perform vehicle inspections and handovers there. No outrage, in fact Emeryville doesn't enforce parking in bike lanes or at red curbs, period. * "Global Gourmet Catering" in San Francisco backs rental trucks into their loading bay such that the entire sidewalk, the entire bike lane, and up to half a traffic lane is blocked approximately every second day. In the evenings the same trucks are parked in public diagonal parking spots sized for passenger vehicles across the street, blocking the side walk and bike lane in the other direction. Reported to 311, forwarded to parking enforcement, won't enforce because blocked sidewalks and blocked bike lanes are handled by different people, and this involves both. * "Enclosures International Corporation" in San Francisco basically runs a fulfillment operation with frequent forklift traffic on a public sidewalk and the bike lane. Super dangerous actually, because it forces cyclists to cross defunct train tracks in the traffic lane at a sharp angle. When the fork lifts aren't there, the Audi Q7 of one of their employees still blocks the sidewalk. Reported to 311, you can guess the outcome. I asked @sf311 on Twitter why these things don't get enforced, but parking scooters on sidewalks does [0]. The answer: > These scooters do not have a license plate. So it does not fall under SFMTA DPT. > DPW BSM permits use of and enforces ordinances regarding public areas, as pertains to blocking items that don't have a license. [0]: https://twitter.com/jonemo/status/985989669895553024 https://twitter.com/jonemo/status/985989669895553024

hvidgaard 8y ago
> I asked @sf311 on Twitter why these things don't get enforced, but parking scooters on sidewalks does [0]. The answer: >> These scooters do not have a license plate. So it does not fall under SFMTA DPT. >> DPW BSM permits use of and enforces ordinances regarding public areas, as pertains to blocking items that don't have a license. > [0]: https://twitter.com/jonemo/status/985989669895553024 https://twitter.com/jonemo/status/985989669895553024 Excellent example of Red Tape in the wild.

cup-of-tea 8y ago

A small business with a fleet of vans will take up more public space than a much larger fleet of dockless bicycles. Private cars are the worst offenders, though. This is just another case of people being blind to the convenience and privilege they already have and kicking off when other people attempt to get such convenience.

pmontra 8y ago

Car sharing companies do that around the world all the time: people park the cars of those companies among privately owned cars. In my country those companies pay a license to city councils and get the right to enter limited traffic zones and park in areas that require a fee. Bike sharing companies pay a license too.

terenig 8y ago

Rental car companies actually do utilize public parking: when cars are rented out, customers are free to park them in any public parking spot. These are businesses that are freely using public space.