6 ms·

How Bolt does fraud detection better

70 points by rbres 8y ago

osrec 8y ago
Having looked at their website, I'm unclear as to whether bolt is a payment processor like Stripe or whether it's just optimising checkouts. Does anyone here use them currently?
- rbres 8y ago
  Bolt is a full-stack solution. We do 1) end-to-end payment processing (like Stripe), 2) optimizing checkout, and 3) white glove fraud detection where we take on full fraud liability.
  - WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
    Okay, do you guys have something that allows me to charge ACH / Credit Card on an ongoing basis (daily) for different amounts? Something like a reusable token like Synapse? I'm looking for something like this but Stripe just isn't cutting it :(
    - rbres 8y ago
      We can likely do this for you with credit card depending on the details. We'll be rolling out ACH in upcoming months (but ACH is not immediately usable). Email me directly and I'll send over details? rb [at] bolt.com.
  - osrec 8y ago
    Thanks, I'd be eager to set up a call with you to talk about payment processing for one of my apps (https://usebx.com https://usebx.com). I've filled out your contact form, so look forward to hearing from you!
rbres 8y ago
Also FYI, CEO of Bolt here. Ask me anything!
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Froyoh 8y ago
  do you support paypal?
  - rbres 8y ago
    We do not natively support PayPal, although nearly all of our clients still use PayPal as it's own separate integration from Bolt.
- spocklivelong 8y ago
  I just saw another post about [stripe](https://stripe.com/blog/radar-2018 https://stripe.com/blog/radar-2018) fraud detection. What differentiates you guys from stripe?
  - rbres 8y ago
    - Fraud detection and data science is our bread and butter. - We take 100% fraud liability. This is different than providing tools and rule engines. We actually make the decisions, and bear the cost of any mistakes. - We are insanely focused on false positive reduction, including several layers of human review before we reject an order. - We collect immense behavioral data via checkout instead of working directly through an API which gives us clearer visibility.
- huac 8y ago
  if a CC issues a chargeback to one of your merchants, do you alert other merchants who have processed payments with that same CC?
  - rbres 8y ago
_jayhack_ 8y ago
Looks dope!
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
CaveTech 8y ago
The product looks interesting but the hand picked examples are literally useless. 3 examples where you approved a transaction that a competitor opted to decline. Based on your examples your model could literally be "approve every transaction". It's not a fair comparison unless you compare approval/decline rates and total fraud per platform.
- rbres 8y ago
  Yep, totally get it. We wanted to show specific examples, but obviously not disclose PII. So, this was a middle-ground although not idea. For every client we measure order approval and decline rates before/after. Here are several case studies with those results: https://bolt.com/case-studies https://bolt.com/case-studies And we have more that we can send over if you're interested in learning more! rb [at] bolt.com.
nothrabannosir 8y ago
(Disclosure: ex-Ravelin employee, a competitor) What are your false positive and false negative rates (if I may ask)? I see you allude to the importance of those metrics somewhere in the post, but I don’t see the comparison with yourselves. Crucially, if you’re taking on responsibility for fraud (i.e. false negatives), you’ll be heavily incentivised to skew your model towards low false negatives. Unfortunately, because of the very nature of algorithmic fraud detection, these are inversely linked to false positives. Less fraud <=> more genuine customers bounced, and vice versa. By taking a side in that bet, your priorities may not be aligned with those of the customer (esp high margin merchants are totally fine with some fraud). Is there something you do to counteract that? This is something I always wondered about when I saw other companies with this business model. Nice post though, and amen to the “we detect fraud!” - “how?” - “uhhhhh…” comic :)
- rbres 8y ago
  Thanks for the question, nothrabannosir! Very key points here, so want to answer it in-depth. Half a dozen points to answer this question: - First off, our #1 north star metrics are order approval rates and minimal false positives. We measure this for every merchant. Clients sign up with us under the clear expectation that they'll see a spike in order approval rates and all of our case studies (compared to tools like Signifyd, Riskified, Stripe Radar, and many others) have shown significant spikes in order approval rates. - We have some of our case studies published here https://bolt.com/case-studies https://bolt.com/case-studies and will be posting more in short order. - We are more incentivized than siloed fraud detection providers to approve more orders. Payment processors are aligned to maximize volume. Fraud providers are aligned to minimize fraud. We play both roles. We want maximum volume through our pipes just as badly as merchants do. - Furthermore, fraud rates are simply FRAUD / TOTAL VOLUME. We always aim to maximize TOTAL VOLUME to keep fraud rates low vs squeezing the numerator (which is what most companies do). - Finally, as elaborated in the most, we have unparalleled data visibility by powering checkout. We use no rules. So, just because something looks bad (e.g. a user using a VPN, coming from a certain country, etc) our models just factor that in as one of hundreds of variables. - We try to not profit and maximize fraud for the first several months to root out false positives in our models. If you only approve things that are clearly good and reject all else, your models will never learn. - Our human review team rigorously processes every machine decline before it's officially declined to once again maximize order approvals. A lot more that I could elaborate on here. But, just a few quick tidbits on what we do to minimize false positives as our #1 priority. All of the above and more lends itself to, what we believe to be, the best results in the industry.
redorb 8y ago
Pricing page: "No more games. Save real money with bolt's simple pricing" Then they go on to not include any ideas of price. When companies can't give me a price range or idea I always have a feeling that their pricing model is to guess my profits and then guess how much they can take and still gain my business. Usually you can identify these types of propositions when the company tells you they're your 'partner' and you're not just a customer - but a partner. Just tell me up to $x in sales it's $y per transaction and $y can have different prices for different features... I don't want a 2 hour call or screen cast to find out it's out of budget. This sales funnel tactic is no more moral than the long form copy sales website.. where they get people to spend 2 hours reading something - then at the end hit them for some amazing offer - where the user feels they've already invested 2 hours 'learning how to x' why not spend $95 and some reaaccuring fee for ever... dark pattern.
- rbres 8y ago
  Thanks for the feedback here. Very much acknowledged. We're going to be revamping the pricing page. Typically our deals are more enterprise-y / custom, especially since we're taking on all fraud liability. It's not just a processing rate. Feel free to send me your volume and website and I'll get you back a quote: rb [at] bolt.com. And the pricing page will be updated soon. Appreciate it, again.
  - LeifCarrotson 8y ago
    > enterprise-y / custom > send me your .... > I'll get you back a quote Thanks, but nah. I don't want to call or email or negotiate, I just want to give you my money and get the service, so I'll be using your competitor who has actual pricing and plan comparison front-and-center on their website. ...or are you just a quote bot and unable to actually read comments? It certainly doesn't appear that you understood the parent's comment.
    - meowface 8y ago
      He pretty much confirmed the parent's point. >I always have a feeling that their pricing model is to guess my profits and then guess how much they can take and still gain my business. "Enterprise-y" pricing is codeword for "smooth-talk non-technical managers at huge corporations and bilk them for as much as they're conceivably willing to pay". That's how the enterprise sales model works, and it can be very effective. It's not always a bad thing, but it does seem irritating that their only pricing option is enterprise pricing.

70 points by rbres 8y ago

Having looked at their website, I'm unclear as to whether bolt is a payment processor like Stripe or whether it's just optimising checkouts. Does anyone here use them currently?

rbres 8y ago
Bolt is a full-stack solution. We do 1) end-to-end payment processing (like Stripe), 2) optimizing checkout, and 3) white glove fraud detection where we take on full fraud liability.
- WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
  Okay, do you guys have something that allows me to charge ACH / Credit Card on an ongoing basis (daily) for different amounts? Something like a reusable token like Synapse? I'm looking for something like this but Stripe just isn't cutting it :(
  - rbres 8y ago
    We can likely do this for you with credit card depending on the details. We'll be rolling out ACH in upcoming months (but ACH is not immediately usable). Email me directly and I'll send over details? rb [at] bolt.com.
- osrec 8y ago
  Thanks, I'd be eager to set up a call with you to talk about payment processing for one of my apps (https://usebx.com https://usebx.com). I've filled out your contact form, so look forward to hearing from you!

rbres 8y ago

Also FYI, CEO of Bolt here. Ask me anything!

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Froyoh 8y ago
do you support paypal?
- rbres 8y ago
  We do not natively support PayPal, although nearly all of our clients still use PayPal as it's own separate integration from Bolt.
spocklivelong 8y ago
I just saw another post about [stripe](https://stripe.com/blog/radar-2018 https://stripe.com/blog/radar-2018) fraud detection. What differentiates you guys from stripe?
- rbres 8y ago
  - Fraud detection and data science is our bread and butter. - We take 100% fraud liability. This is different than providing tools and rule engines. We actually make the decisions, and bear the cost of any mistakes. - We are insanely focused on false positive reduction, including several layers of human review before we reject an order. - We collect immense behavioral data via checkout instead of working directly through an API which gives us clearer visibility.
huac 8y ago
if a CC issues a chargeback to one of your merchants, do you alert other merchants who have processed payments with that same CC?
- rbres 8y ago

_jayhack_ 8y ago

Looks dope!

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

CaveTech 8y ago

The product looks interesting but the hand picked examples are literally useless. 3 examples where you approved a transaction that a competitor opted to decline. Based on your examples your model could literally be "approve every transaction". It's not a fair comparison unless you compare approval/decline rates and total fraud per platform.

rbres 8y ago
Yep, totally get it. We wanted to show specific examples, but obviously not disclose PII. So, this was a middle-ground although not idea. For every client we measure order approval and decline rates before/after. Here are several case studies with those results: https://bolt.com/case-studies https://bolt.com/case-studies And we have more that we can send over if you're interested in learning more! rb [at] bolt.com.

nothrabannosir 8y ago

(Disclosure: ex-Ravelin employee, a competitor) What are your false positive and false negative rates (if I may ask)? I see you allude to the importance of those metrics somewhere in the post, but I don’t see the comparison with yourselves. Crucially, if you’re taking on responsibility for fraud (i.e. false negatives), you’ll be heavily incentivised to skew your model towards low false negatives. Unfortunately, because of the very nature of algorithmic fraud detection, these are inversely linked to false positives. Less fraud <=> more genuine customers bounced, and vice versa. By taking a side in that bet, your priorities may not be aligned with those of the customer (esp high margin merchants are totally fine with some fraud). Is there something you do to counteract that? This is something I always wondered about when I saw other companies with this business model. Nice post though, and amen to the “we detect fraud!” - “how?” - “uhhhhh…” comic :)

rbres 8y ago
Thanks for the question, nothrabannosir! Very key points here, so want to answer it in-depth. Half a dozen points to answer this question: - First off, our #1 north star metrics are order approval rates and minimal false positives. We measure this for every merchant. Clients sign up with us under the clear expectation that they'll see a spike in order approval rates and all of our case studies (compared to tools like Signifyd, Riskified, Stripe Radar, and many others) have shown significant spikes in order approval rates. - We have some of our case studies published here https://bolt.com/case-studies https://bolt.com/case-studies and will be posting more in short order. - We are more incentivized than siloed fraud detection providers to approve more orders. Payment processors are aligned to maximize volume. Fraud providers are aligned to minimize fraud. We play both roles. We want maximum volume through our pipes just as badly as merchants do. - Furthermore, fraud rates are simply FRAUD / TOTAL VOLUME. We always aim to maximize TOTAL VOLUME to keep fraud rates low vs squeezing the numerator (which is what most companies do). - Finally, as elaborated in the most, we have unparalleled data visibility by powering checkout. We use no rules. So, just because something looks bad (e.g. a user using a VPN, coming from a certain country, etc) our models just factor that in as one of hundreds of variables. - We try to not profit and maximize fraud for the first several months to root out false positives in our models. If you only approve things that are clearly good and reject all else, your models will never learn. - Our human review team rigorously processes every machine decline before it's officially declined to once again maximize order approvals. A lot more that I could elaborate on here. But, just a few quick tidbits on what we do to minimize false positives as our #1 priority. All of the above and more lends itself to, what we believe to be, the best results in the industry.

redorb 8y ago

Pricing page: "No more games. Save real money with bolt's simple pricing" Then they go on to not include any ideas of price. When companies can't give me a price range or idea I always have a feeling that their pricing model is to guess my profits and then guess how much they can take and still gain my business. Usually you can identify these types of propositions when the company tells you they're your 'partner' and you're not just a customer - but a partner. Just tell me up to $x in sales it's $y per transaction and $y can have different prices for different features... I don't want a 2 hour call or screen cast to find out it's out of budget. This sales funnel tactic is no more moral than the long form copy sales website.. where they get people to spend 2 hours reading something - then at the end hit them for some amazing offer - where the user feels they've already invested 2 hours 'learning how to x' why not spend $95 and some reaaccuring fee for ever... dark pattern.

rbres 8y ago
Thanks for the feedback here. Very much acknowledged. We're going to be revamping the pricing page. Typically our deals are more enterprise-y / custom, especially since we're taking on all fraud liability. It's not just a processing rate. Feel free to send me your volume and website and I'll get you back a quote: rb [at] bolt.com. And the pricing page will be updated soon. Appreciate it, again.
- LeifCarrotson 8y ago
  > enterprise-y / custom > send me your .... > I'll get you back a quote Thanks, but nah. I don't want to call or email or negotiate, I just want to give you my money and get the service, so I'll be using your competitor who has actual pricing and plan comparison front-and-center on their website. ...or are you just a quote bot and unable to actually read comments? It certainly doesn't appear that you understood the parent's comment.
  - meowface 8y ago
    He pretty much confirmed the parent's point. >I always have a feeling that their pricing model is to guess my profits and then guess how much they can take and still gain my business. "Enterprise-y" pricing is codeword for "smooth-talk non-technical managers at huge corporations and bilk them for as much as they're conceivably willing to pay". That's how the enterprise sales model works, and it can be very effective. It's not always a bad thing, but it does seem irritating that their only pricing option is enterprise pricing.