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I'm actually willing to give Tesla credit here precisely for that reason -- not because unions are bad (many industries need it, auto included), but because UAW

I'm actually willing to give Tesla credit here precisely for that reason -- not because unions are bad (many industries need it, auto included), but because UAW in my possibly-misinformed mind has been at least indirectly the cause of a decline in build quality in American cars.

hangonhn 9y ago
Why do people think that? A lot of cars are poor quality by design and choice of material. I drive German cars and there are certain choices in design and material don't stand up to time. I understand why those choices were made (70% of luxury cars are leased and aren't expected to be owned past 5 years). From an engineering point of view, the cars were optimized for a certain "fitness function". I imagine American cars were designed to optimize for certain constraints too. I also know that a large number of Japanese brand cars are in fact built in the US by American auto workers. And their quality and reliability are as high as those built in Japan. The view you espoused is fairly common but I don't understand why UAW would lead to poor quality cars when cars are designed and built using standardized procedures with machines that perform the same each time (not a rhetorical question, I really don't understand where this view comes from)
frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
The journalists refute what Tesla is saying in their ongoing AMA: Hi there, we did this reporting completely independently of the union. This is another instance of deceptive Tesla wording, when Tesla says: working directly with union supporters what they mean is that some of the workers Reveal interviewed were in the union. Of course some of the interviewees weren't tied to the union but those go unmentioned.
- on_and_off 9y ago
  I have got to say, in the past year I have gotten from "oh I should get a Tesla some day if I need a car" to "nope, never buying anything from these guys". I appreciate what Tesla did to popularize electric cars, but everything else isn't that great.
  - taf2 9y ago
    your loss, they're the best cars on the road. it's iphone 2007 vs flip phone...
    - on_and_off 9y ago
      I am fine, thanks. I really enjoy not needing a car and don't enjoy driving, even a nice one. The various reports of low quality of Tesla's cars (like their doors :/ ) have also contributed to suppress any tesla envy. If I really needed a car right now, I would start by comparing the different ones on the market, Tesla is not the only player in town anymore.
      - taf2 9y ago
        Uh ok... clearly you have no idea about what a Tesla is or maybe never driven one or even ridden in one... why are you commenting on things you have no experience in?
        on_and_off 9y ago
        or maybe I just have .. gasp .. a different opinion than you
        dang 9y ago
        This crosses into personal attack, which isn't ok on HN. Could you please read the rules and post only civil, substantive comments from now on? Regardless of how wrong another comment is. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
prolepunk 9y ago
This is a self-contradictory statement and the end of which you're blaming unions for something you don't provide evidence. Citation please.
- eganist 9y ago
  https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/business/27auto.html?mtrref=undefined https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/business/27auto.html?m... https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/business/28auto.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/business/28auto.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/11/15/business/15auto.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/11/15/business/15auto.html Closest I can get you since all the journal articles are from conservative-leaning institutions with a vested interest against unionization. All three articles are about the new contracts UAW signed in 2007 as the auto industry was collapsing in the United States, all of which cite massive concessions back to the auto companies. Notably, Ford still got to fold 10 of their original 16 plants scheduled for closure, GM got to shift away massive healthcare obligations, and Chrysler managed to substantially reduce their employment guarantees. If you were a union interested in a happy balance between company and employee rather than just making your employees score every short-term dollar that they could, you wouldn't need to concede like this with one, let alone every, major United States-founded auto maker. It's worth noting that GM actually got the biggest haul up front since they got the opportunity to negotiate first.
mabufo 9y ago
That is absolutely baseless.

hangonhn 9y ago

Why do people think that? A lot of cars are poor quality by design and choice of material. I drive German cars and there are certain choices in design and material don't stand up to time. I understand why those choices were made (70% of luxury cars are leased and aren't expected to be owned past 5 years). From an engineering point of view, the cars were optimized for a certain "fitness function". I imagine American cars were designed to optimize for certain constraints too. I also know that a large number of Japanese brand cars are in fact built in the US by American auto workers. And their quality and reliability are as high as those built in Japan. The view you espoused is fairly common but I don't understand why UAW would lead to poor quality cars when cars are designed and built using standardized procedures with machines that perform the same each time (not a rhetorical question, I really don't understand where this view comes from)

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago

The journalists refute what Tesla is saying in their ongoing AMA: Hi there, we did this reporting completely independently of the union. This is another instance of deceptive Tesla wording, when Tesla says: working directly with union supporters what they mean is that some of the workers Reveal interviewed were in the union. Of course some of the interviewees weren't tied to the union but those go unmentioned.

on_and_off 9y ago
I have got to say, in the past year I have gotten from "oh I should get a Tesla some day if I need a car" to "nope, never buying anything from these guys". I appreciate what Tesla did to popularize electric cars, but everything else isn't that great.
- taf2 9y ago
  your loss, they're the best cars on the road. it's iphone 2007 vs flip phone...
  - on_and_off 9y ago
    I am fine, thanks. I really enjoy not needing a car and don't enjoy driving, even a nice one. The various reports of low quality of Tesla's cars (like their doors :/ ) have also contributed to suppress any tesla envy. If I really needed a car right now, I would start by comparing the different ones on the market, Tesla is not the only player in town anymore.
    - taf2 9y ago
      Uh ok... clearly you have no idea about what a Tesla is or maybe never driven one or even ridden in one... why are you commenting on things you have no experience in?
      - on_and_off 9y ago
        or maybe I just have .. gasp .. a different opinion than you
      - dang 9y ago
        This crosses into personal attack, which isn't ok on HN. Could you please read the rules and post only civil, substantive comments from now on? Regardless of how wrong another comment is. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

prolepunk 9y ago

This is a self-contradictory statement and the end of which you're blaming unions for something you don't provide evidence. Citation please.

eganist 9y ago
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/business/27auto.html?mtrref=undefined https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/business/27auto.html?m... https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/business/28auto.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/business/28auto.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/11/15/business/15auto.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/11/15/business/15auto.html Closest I can get you since all the journal articles are from conservative-leaning institutions with a vested interest against unionization. All three articles are about the new contracts UAW signed in 2007 as the auto industry was collapsing in the United States, all of which cite massive concessions back to the auto companies. Notably, Ford still got to fold 10 of their original 16 plants scheduled for closure, GM got to shift away massive healthcare obligations, and Chrysler managed to substantially reduce their employment guarantees. If you were a union interested in a happy balance between company and employee rather than just making your employees score every short-term dollar that they could, you wouldn't need to concede like this with one, let alone every, major United States-founded auto maker. It's worth noting that GM actually got the biggest haul up front since they got the opportunity to negotiate first.

mabufo 9y ago

That is absolutely baseless.