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The Pentagon long ago learned to program for future wars, not past ones. I am pretty sure the F-35's programmatic justifications were a nod to potential adversa

The Pentagon long ago learned to program for future wars, not past ones. I am pretty sure the F-35's programmatic justifications were a nod to potential adversaries who were militarily advanced, meaning China.

patcheudor 9y ago
Let's say China builds a jet that is as good as the F-35. Given our ability to precision target planes with missiles delivered by drones, what's the point of the F-35? Putting a human in the cockpit of an aircraft for any form of warfare really doesn't feel like thinking about future wars to be honest.
- greedo 9y ago
  You won't be able to hit targets with missiles delivered by drones in a near-peer conflict. Jamming, GPS spoofing, and the current performance of drones precludes this.
- mieseratte 9y ago
  > Given our ability to precision target planes with missiles delivered by drones You might be overestimating the quality, reliability, stealth of drones. Up until a few years ago, you could capture (read) drone feeds[0] with COTS software / hardware. I don't mean as a hypothetical, I mean insurgents were doing this. > Putting a human in the cockpit of an aircraft for any form of warfare really doesn't feel like thinking about future wars to be honest. One would assume the tech simply isn't ready for a stealth plane without a human driver. AI surely isn't, and one would assume that transmissions for a remote-based pilot, as drones are operated, would be a giant signal that an advanced stealth craft is in your airspace. [0] - https://www.wired.com/2012/10/hack-proof-drone/ https://www.wired.com/2012/10/hack-proof-drone/
- cptskippy 9y ago
  > Given our ability to precision target planes with missiles delivered by drones, what's the point of the F-35? The F-35 has a smaller radar cross section than the F-22 which has a smaller radar cross section than the B-2 which has a smaller radar cross section than the F-117. The B-2's radar cross section was described as a bumble bee. If you combine that with ECMs and support for EW like Growlers, the F-35 becomes difficult to shoot down with missiles. During the initial stages of an armed conflict, the first thing you do is go after your opponent's air superiority. That means targeting Radars, SAMs, runways, and Drone stations. This is where the F-35 is suppose to shine. It works in squadrons of 8 or more simultaneously spot, targeting, and engaging multiple targets. How do you counter that? Will an air superiority fighter playing an intercept role to engage and take out the attacking force. That's where the F-22 comes into play. The F-22 is an air superiority fighter that will provide operational support to the F-35 engaging any threats well before they can pose a risk to the F-35.
- sillyquiet 9y ago
  I think you are forgetting how long a design lead these projects have. The first time pen was put to paper on the plane that would be the F-35 would have been in the 1990s sometimes. Drones were far away from viable then.
GVIrish 9y ago
> I am pretty sure the F-35's programmatic justifications were a nod to potential adversaries who were militarily advanced, meaning China. Yes, but the F-35 was also dreamed up as a way to dramatically reduce costs by sharing components. Parts commonality was supposed to be something like 80% between variants but in reality it's more like 25%. It was supposed to be substantially cheaper than the F-22 but it is almost just as expensive per unit. And all of that points to the fundamental truth that the F-35 is not as capable as it could be because it was built with a fundamental compromise in mind. In particular, designing the airframe for the V/STOL requirement meant it had a wider radar cross section, worse cockpit visibility and worse aerodynamic performance from the start. Had they at least broken off the V/STOL requirement into a separate airframe they could've end up with a higher performing aircraft that may have been cheaper to boot. Instead they took the mistakes of the F-111 program and doubled down on them.
- sillyquiet 9y ago
  All of that is undeniably, unfortunately true as well. At the end of the day the F-35 is a jack-of-all-trades and master of none that isn't even a a jack-of-all-trades.

patcheudor 9y ago

Let's say China builds a jet that is as good as the F-35. Given our ability to precision target planes with missiles delivered by drones, what's the point of the F-35? Putting a human in the cockpit of an aircraft for any form of warfare really doesn't feel like thinking about future wars to be honest.

greedo 9y ago
You won't be able to hit targets with missiles delivered by drones in a near-peer conflict. Jamming, GPS spoofing, and the current performance of drones precludes this.
mieseratte 9y ago
> Given our ability to precision target planes with missiles delivered by drones You might be overestimating the quality, reliability, stealth of drones. Up until a few years ago, you could capture (read) drone feeds[0] with COTS software / hardware. I don't mean as a hypothetical, I mean insurgents were doing this. > Putting a human in the cockpit of an aircraft for any form of warfare really doesn't feel like thinking about future wars to be honest. One would assume the tech simply isn't ready for a stealth plane without a human driver. AI surely isn't, and one would assume that transmissions for a remote-based pilot, as drones are operated, would be a giant signal that an advanced stealth craft is in your airspace. [0] - https://www.wired.com/2012/10/hack-proof-drone/ https://www.wired.com/2012/10/hack-proof-drone/
cptskippy 9y ago
> Given our ability to precision target planes with missiles delivered by drones, what's the point of the F-35? The F-35 has a smaller radar cross section than the F-22 which has a smaller radar cross section than the B-2 which has a smaller radar cross section than the F-117. The B-2's radar cross section was described as a bumble bee. If you combine that with ECMs and support for EW like Growlers, the F-35 becomes difficult to shoot down with missiles. During the initial stages of an armed conflict, the first thing you do is go after your opponent's air superiority. That means targeting Radars, SAMs, runways, and Drone stations. This is where the F-35 is suppose to shine. It works in squadrons of 8 or more simultaneously spot, targeting, and engaging multiple targets. How do you counter that? Will an air superiority fighter playing an intercept role to engage and take out the attacking force. That's where the F-22 comes into play. The F-22 is an air superiority fighter that will provide operational support to the F-35 engaging any threats well before they can pose a risk to the F-35.
sillyquiet 9y ago
I think you are forgetting how long a design lead these projects have. The first time pen was put to paper on the plane that would be the F-35 would have been in the 1990s sometimes. Drones were far away from viable then.

GVIrish 9y ago

> I am pretty sure the F-35's programmatic justifications were a nod to potential adversaries who were militarily advanced, meaning China. Yes, but the F-35 was also dreamed up as a way to dramatically reduce costs by sharing components. Parts commonality was supposed to be something like 80% between variants but in reality it's more like 25%. It was supposed to be substantially cheaper than the F-22 but it is almost just as expensive per unit. And all of that points to the fundamental truth that the F-35 is not as capable as it could be because it was built with a fundamental compromise in mind. In particular, designing the airframe for the V/STOL requirement meant it had a wider radar cross section, worse cockpit visibility and worse aerodynamic performance from the start. Had they at least broken off the V/STOL requirement into a separate airframe they could've end up with a higher performing aircraft that may have been cheaper to boot. Instead they took the mistakes of the F-111 program and doubled down on them.

sillyquiet 9y ago
All of that is undeniably, unfortunately true as well. At the end of the day the F-35 is a jack-of-all-trades and master of none that isn't even a a jack-of-all-trades.