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Does Tesla have automation problems? They appear to be having atrocious labor conditions while putting out a very small quantity of product compared with absol

Does Tesla have automation problems? They appear to be having atrocious labor conditions while putting out a very small quantity of product compared with absolutely everybody else.

matte_black 9y ago
I bet. I see this frequently in companies with high automation dependency. If your automation isn’t working correctly you accelerate full speed into a brick wall.
- kistaro 9y ago
  That's Toyota, we're talking about Tesla.
  - avs733 9y ago
    This is absolutely and utterly false. Toyota's manufacturing is moving in almost the exact opposite direction of Tesla's and it is working much better.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      I think kistaro was making a joke about Toyota's infamous acceleration problem.
- woolvalley 9y ago
  That feels like computing bugs in general.
sf_rob 9y ago
Musk in an interview last week said as much (re: automation). He claims that the Model 3 line was over-automated so now they're tearing out sections for rework while doing more with the labor on hand. (Although they're about to also install new sections from their German automation subsidiary so it goes both ways).
- StudentStuff 9y ago
  The whole play with making their own tooling seems ill conceived at Tesla's small scale, and it has definitely set the Model 3's production back quite a bit.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    Sounds like a replay of Next.
    - 8bitchemistry 9y ago
      I was thinking the same thing: the over-engineered automation reminds me of the NeXT computer production line that Steve Jobs built: https://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/24/business/all-next-inc-s-plant-lacks-is-orders.html https://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/24/business/all-next-inc-s-p...
  - rgbrenner 9y ago
    This has been true across the board at Tesla... they make almost all of the parts in house, even when there are established reliable providers... even when it costs them more and results in lower quality.. even when they are already short staffed. Musk is pro-NIH syndrome. In fairness, Musk says they will eventually be as reliable, and as high quality as others and it'll be cheaper.. one day. That's the common NIH fallacy though.
    - mschuster91 9y ago
      > even when it costs them more and results in lower quality. The advantage of keeping much knowledge in-house is that you are not subject to extortion campaigns (e.g. the Prevent/VW dispute. In addition you - are always exposing your internal knowledge to the part vendor and have to rely on the vendor protecting your IP from other customers, so "inventing here" works out better. - are not bound to endless rounds of waterfall development. Tesla is heavily agile from what can be seen in reports... keeping communications (and decisions!) short saves money and especially time. Where time is Teslas biggest issue - just like a Tesla will kill almost anything at a drag race, eventually the gas-powered engine will win as it can go to higher speeds... and this is even more valid in terms of production. Tesla absolutely has to develop rapidly so they can get an established mass production e-car before Mercedes, BMW, VW and especially Toyota catch up and fly past Tesla. - have to factor in margins for the vendors and by extension also their refinancing cost - Tesla gets shovelled with cheap cash, a vendor must build production lines with significantly more expensive capital. This adds up especially over many years... - have less issues if something goes bad. For the old model, if a defect turns up it's usually a complex and long negotiation process where each side wants to avoid assuming blame (and thus costs). For Tesla, this cost risk falls away for all parts they manufacture in-house. - have less probability for a catastrophic fuck up, I'd say. While a vendor has to "save face" and so has the incentive to e.g. hide issues that crop up during development or, worse, production from the customer (in order to avoid delay or other fines), the incentive for a Tesla-internal department is much less, as there are no delay fines.

Does Tesla have automation problems? They appear to be having atrocious labor conditions while putting out a very small quantity of product compared with absolutely everybody else.

matte_black 9y ago

I bet. I see this frequently in companies with high automation dependency. If your automation isn’t working correctly you accelerate full speed into a brick wall.

kistaro 9y ago
That's Toyota, we're talking about Tesla.
- avs733 9y ago
  This is absolutely and utterly false. Toyota's manufacturing is moving in almost the exact opposite direction of Tesla's and it is working much better.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    I think kistaro was making a joke about Toyota's infamous acceleration problem.
woolvalley 9y ago
That feels like computing bugs in general.

sf_rob 9y ago

Musk in an interview last week said as much (re: automation). He claims that the Model 3 line was over-automated so now they're tearing out sections for rework while doing more with the labor on hand. (Although they're about to also install new sections from their German automation subsidiary so it goes both ways).

StudentStuff 9y ago
The whole play with making their own tooling seems ill conceived at Tesla's small scale, and it has definitely set the Model 3's production back quite a bit.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  Sounds like a replay of Next.
  - 8bitchemistry 9y ago
    I was thinking the same thing: the over-engineered automation reminds me of the NeXT computer production line that Steve Jobs built: https://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/24/business/all-next-inc-s-plant-lacks-is-orders.html https://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/24/business/all-next-inc-s-p...
- rgbrenner 9y ago
  This has been true across the board at Tesla... they make almost all of the parts in house, even when there are established reliable providers... even when it costs them more and results in lower quality.. even when they are already short staffed. Musk is pro-NIH syndrome. In fairness, Musk says they will eventually be as reliable, and as high quality as others and it'll be cheaper.. one day. That's the common NIH fallacy though.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    > even when it costs them more and results in lower quality. The advantage of keeping much knowledge in-house is that you are not subject to extortion campaigns (e.g. the Prevent/VW dispute. In addition you - are always exposing your internal knowledge to the part vendor and have to rely on the vendor protecting your IP from other customers, so "inventing here" works out better. - are not bound to endless rounds of waterfall development. Tesla is heavily agile from what can be seen in reports... keeping communications (and decisions!) short saves money and especially time. Where time is Teslas biggest issue - just like a Tesla will kill almost anything at a drag race, eventually the gas-powered engine will win as it can go to higher speeds... and this is even more valid in terms of production. Tesla absolutely has to develop rapidly so they can get an established mass production e-car before Mercedes, BMW, VW and especially Toyota catch up and fly past Tesla. - have to factor in margins for the vendors and by extension also their refinancing cost - Tesla gets shovelled with cheap cash, a vendor must build production lines with significantly more expensive capital. This adds up especially over many years... - have less issues if something goes bad. For the old model, if a defect turns up it's usually a complex and long negotiation process where each side wants to avoid assuming blame (and thus costs). For Tesla, this cost risk falls away for all parts they manufacture in-house. - have less probability for a catastrophic fuck up, I'd say. While a vendor has to "save face" and so has the incentive to e.g. hide issues that crop up during development or, worse, production from the customer (in order to avoid delay or other fines), the incentive for a Tesla-internal department is much less, as there are no delay fines.