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And based on the author's previous Django and ORM posts, I look forward to the next post in a few months when the black magic stops working and they begin to ha
by jnoller 16y ago
And based on the author's previous Django and ORM posts, I look forward to the next post in a few months when the black magic stops working and they begin to hate on Rails as a framework.
- mbreese 16y agoshh They seem like they are still in the honeymoon period... let them enjoy it.
- FraaJad 16y agoIt must have been a serious accident. The concussion to the brain appears to be pretty severe.
- snprbob86 16y agoshrug I never really had a honeymoon period with any other web framework I've tried, so let's see how long it lasts.
- bmelton 16y agoI had really quite a good one with Django, which clicked to me in a way that Rails never did. I miss scaffolding though, as I think that was the 'killer app' to RAD, but I'm to the point where I feel like even my simpler apps feel constrained by either Rails or Django at this point (though I'm probably just not knowledgeable enough), and have started doing everything with Tornado and SQLAlchemy, which, while they're currently kicking my ass, doesn't give me any sense of constraint whatsoever. Of course, upper bounds have always been something that bothered me, even when they were realistically well about my own limits. When I was learning to play guitar, I went out and bought a Les Paul, for the comfort of knowing that whatever else goes wrong, I can't blame the tool. In reality I know that only poor craftsmen do that, but every time I get stuck trying to remember the 'Django' way to do something, I feel like I'm in a box I want to climb out of. On the whole though, it's quite lovely.
- cubicle67 16y agoyou seem to be keeping good humour considering the number of patronising responses you've received here
- snprbob86 16y agoI firmly believe that if you don't stop laughing, you'll live forever.
- snprbob86 16y agoI'm the author. Yeah, there is a non-zero chance of that happening. However, I keep discovering more and more Rails design choices that either match or closely align with my preferences. The three biggies comparing to Django are: 1) Powerful templates (including the convenience of "Helpers") 2) Non-declarative schema ORM with full migration support 3) Form validation and generation with Rails doesn't suck Lastly, Rails feels battle tested and production ready. Everything from the Rake tasks, to the framework surface area, to the plugins available seems tuned for real applications. Python stacks I have tried often require a lot of hackery to handle server configurations, deployment, content builds, template helpers, ... the list goes on and on.
- andrewingram 16y agoI can't disagree on ORM and templates (I disagree with the lack of proper method invocation in Django templates, it annoys me having to create tags for trivial things). I kind of disagree on the form validation though. Having used a number of frameworks prior to Django (including Rails for about a year), I love the way forms are handled in it - it just seems to make sense to me.
- jnoller 16y agoI think you and I both know - once you've run with something long enough, you hit a wall. Everything - every language, framework or tool hits a wall. You hit yours with Django because you fundamentally disagreed with some of the design decisions. I personally have not hit my wall (with django) but I see plenty of room for improvement. It's awesome you built something so quickly with Rails - I have a similar experience with Django (a tiny amount of time to build a really deep application). I personally found it amusing/bothersome that you were lauding a fairly magical and opinionated framework when you had old posts deriding Django (and it's ORM) in the past.
- snprbob86 16y agoI like opinionated software. Especially when it matches my opinions. And if it doesn't match my opinions, it is easy to dismiss it. It isn't the magic about Django (and it's ORM) that I didn't like. It was the design decisions that didn't match how I think (and approach of declaring the DB schema in code).
- sanderjd 16y agoThis reply could be to the majority of comments on this post, I just chose yours because it's the first one. I'm pretty disappointed with HN being party to the same smug, knowing, tongue-in-cheek Rails (and to a lesser extent, Ruby) hating that you constantly see on Slashdot and elsewhere. There are merits to Rails, and also drawbacks, as there are with every tool. It isn't magic, or anything close - the code is all there for you to read, and it is just Ruby, no pixie dust anywhere.
- modoc 16y agoWhile you aren't wrong regarding the parent comment, I'm actually constantly surprised by how in love with RoR the HN crowd generally seems to be.
- generalk 16y agoWhy? RoR allows lots of HN-types (hackers, people prototyping web business, etc.) to build products quickly. In fact, that's exactly what TFA is an example of. I'm actually constantly surprised at the number of HN readers who seem to hate on RoR out of general principal.
- jacquesm 16y agoTry posting a balanced comment about PHP if you think RoR has a hard time here. Read this and the first comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1596505 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1596505 That should give you a good idea.
- generalk 16y agoA lot of the HN crowd dislikes PHP, and can point to dozens of reasons why: no consistency in the standard library re: naming conventions, order of arguments, etc; poor abstractions; up until recent versions, a lack of namespaces or late static binding, and so forth. A lot of the HN crowd seems to dislike Rails, but I've never once seen someone post a objective reason why. Philosophical differences I can see -- maybe Rails isn't for everyone. But the majority of the anti-Rails posts are FUD at worst, and misinformed at best.
- icey 16y agoThis kind of attitude makes me keep looking for ways to move away from Python-land. The new "we're better than everyone else" attitude is seriously grating. I like writing Python, but it sucks seeing this kind of crap every time I go into a mailing list or just about every other public programming forum around.
- kaptainlange 16y ago> The new "we're better than everyone else" He didn't say that at all.
- icey 16y agoI didn't say he did. Reread what I said.
- kaptainlange 16y ago> This kind of attitude makes me keep looking for ways to move away from Python-land. The new "we're better than everyone else" attitude Is this not accusing him of having the "we're better than everyone else" attitude? If not, apologies, but that's what the comment seems to say.
- icey 16y agoYes, he has that attitude. No, he didn't explicitly say that. Those are two different things. There's no point in arguing about it. This is only my opinion, and really I'm nobody; just someone who uses this stuff.
- jnoller 16y agoNo, I don't have that opinion. Look at my history on my blog, or comment history here. Python, Django, etc have plenty to fix and get right. Your facts are wrong.
- 16y ago
- generalk 16y agoI understand that based on the author's previous posts this seems likely, but I'm curious: Is this just snark, or are you familiar with cases where Rails' "black magic" stopped working and caused problems? Because I'm not.