5 ms·

> rent hikes caused by zoning codes and regulations that push the price of building up higher and higher -bostonjeff

by jeffbax 9y ago

gowld 9y ago
Building isn't expensive. The space above the land is (infinitely) expensive due to zoning constraints.
- StudentStuff 9y ago
  Requiring garden space and car storage for every bedroom built is a quick way to double a project's costs. Why have zoning codes that prohibit the best use of the land?
  - losteric 9y ago
    Zoning codes are a double-edged sword. On one hand, they stop someone from building a high-rise in the middle of a low-density residential area... on the other hand, the very same regulations prevent the market from scaling up to meet new demand. New zoning legislation moves slowly when constituents benefit from rising real-estate prices (to the detriment of the broader public). Legislation like "new construction must not be more than N floor(s) higher than surrounding properties" might help, rather than the simple fixed height limit many areas set.
    - StudentStuff 9y ago
      If a proposed high rise is near a BRT line or rail, a reasonable zoning code shouldn't mangle it or block its construction.
      - rosser 9y ago
        ...and we're already pretty far down the rabbit hole of how zoning gets so complex. There are always exceptions. There are always circumstances. There are always NIMBYs. AFAICT, you cannot regulate how land is used — which isn't necessarily a bad thing — without bumping into those things, which seems invariably to compromise, or at least complicate, the effort. I would still very much prefer zoning over someone who can afford to do so deciding, simply on that basis, that he's going to build, say, a tannery up-wind of my home. Imposing your externalities upon others is, IMO, a bright-line breach of the NAP. (Since it's so often Libertarian-leaning folk who are all, "But zoning!") EDIT: phrasing
        rayiner 9y ago
        Getting rid of zoning doesn't mean getting rid of nuisance law. If someone builds a tannery upwind from your propeety, you can sue him formcausing a nuisance. And he can either pay you, stop, or buy you out depending on what is economically efficient. The peoblem with zoning is that it allows you to stop lots of things that would not qualify as a nuisance. And it prevents lots of things that would be an economic win (buildimg a high rise in a previous low rise neighborhood if property owners were willing to sell out).
    - xvedejas 9y ago
      Building high-rises (well, 8+ stories) in the middle of low-density residential areas is something that happens in Japan, and I find it charming. Why are we enforcing the aesthetic wishes of some people but not others?
      - konschubert 9y ago
        Because there are ugly cities and there are beautiful cities. And they are so for a reason. This video is really informative in this regard and has changed my opinion on a few things: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy4QjmKzF1c https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy4QjmKzF1c
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        rukittenme 9y ago
        Society would be much better off in ugly cities rather than expensive ones.
      - twelvechairs 9y ago
        High-rise should be close to shops, services and transport. In some currently low-density places these might be there (particularly in Japan), but in many they aren't. 'Heritage' is a different issue - most western countries are far too conservative here
    - L_Rahman 9y ago
      the problem is that zoning is a bad hack to solve the problem of how a neighborhood feels. we know that we don't want it get too big or loud - no 50 story office building, or vape shops and bars on every corner - so we write blanket rules restricting certain kinds of construction and grant power to the people already living there for changes to the code itself and approval over all buildings matching the existing code this puts all the power in two types of people - those entrenched in this process with political and financial power, and existing homeowners. Both of these groups then use their power to preserve what they already have and impose their ideal of a neighborhood over everyone else and because we live in America not only do the people in power act knowingly in the interest of preserving their wealth and power but also incorporate their biases - especially against members of a class or race - into exclusio this is so fundamentally broken and yet as a fundamental construct American cities lack any mechanism for questioning the concentration of power in homeowners and it is crazy. in a transit starved stretch of Brooklyn, homeowners blocked a bus lane from going up just because they wouldn't let go of a hundred parking spots during weekday business hours. entire communities suffer because people who own homes and cars refuse to compromise
    - aidenn0 9y ago
      I find high-rise buildings to be a straw-man. You can get amazing density with 3-story apartment buildings, but those are rare in a lot of expensive markets.
      - clairity 9y ago
        cities should allow up to 6-story buildings in residential areas, because that's the reasonable max height of a wood frame building (it used to be 4 stories, but i hear construction practices have improved to allow up to 6). wood frame is cheaper to build than either concrete or steel, which are the other predominant building materials (which allow much taller builds). http://missingmiddlehousing.com/ http://missingmiddlehousing.com/
    - rayiner 9y ago
      What's wrong with building a high rise on land you own?
  - rayiner 9y ago
    Because state and local governments hate America.
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  ThatsThePoint.jpg

> rent hikes caused by zoning codes and regulations that push the price of building up higher and higher -bostonjeff

gowld 9y ago

Building isn't expensive. The space above the land is (infinitely) expensive due to zoning constraints.

StudentStuff 9y ago
Requiring garden space and car storage for every bedroom built is a quick way to double a project's costs. Why have zoning codes that prohibit the best use of the land?
- losteric 9y ago
  Zoning codes are a double-edged sword. On one hand, they stop someone from building a high-rise in the middle of a low-density residential area... on the other hand, the very same regulations prevent the market from scaling up to meet new demand. New zoning legislation moves slowly when constituents benefit from rising real-estate prices (to the detriment of the broader public). Legislation like "new construction must not be more than N floor(s) higher than surrounding properties" might help, rather than the simple fixed height limit many areas set.
  - StudentStuff 9y ago
    If a proposed high rise is near a BRT line or rail, a reasonable zoning code shouldn't mangle it or block its construction.
    - rosser 9y ago
      ...and we're already pretty far down the rabbit hole of how zoning gets so complex. There are always exceptions. There are always circumstances. There are always NIMBYs. AFAICT, you cannot regulate how land is used — which isn't necessarily a bad thing — without bumping into those things, which seems invariably to compromise, or at least complicate, the effort. I would still very much prefer zoning over someone who can afford to do so deciding, simply on that basis, that he's going to build, say, a tannery up-wind of my home. Imposing your externalities upon others is, IMO, a bright-line breach of the NAP. (Since it's so often Libertarian-leaning folk who are all, "But zoning!") EDIT: phrasing
      - rayiner 9y ago
        Getting rid of zoning doesn't mean getting rid of nuisance law. If someone builds a tannery upwind from your propeety, you can sue him formcausing a nuisance. And he can either pay you, stop, or buy you out depending on what is economically efficient. The peoblem with zoning is that it allows you to stop lots of things that would not qualify as a nuisance. And it prevents lots of things that would be an economic win (buildimg a high rise in a previous low rise neighborhood if property owners were willing to sell out).
  - xvedejas 9y ago
    Building high-rises (well, 8+ stories) in the middle of low-density residential areas is something that happens in Japan, and I find it charming. Why are we enforcing the aesthetic wishes of some people but not others?
    - konschubert 9y ago
      Because there are ugly cities and there are beautiful cities. And they are so for a reason. This video is really informative in this regard and has changed my opinion on a few things: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy4QjmKzF1c https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy4QjmKzF1c
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - rukittenme 9y ago
        Society would be much better off in ugly cities rather than expensive ones.
    - twelvechairs 9y ago
      High-rise should be close to shops, services and transport. In some currently low-density places these might be there (particularly in Japan), but in many they aren't. 'Heritage' is a different issue - most western countries are far too conservative here
  - L_Rahman 9y ago
    the problem is that zoning is a bad hack to solve the problem of how a neighborhood feels. we know that we don't want it get too big or loud - no 50 story office building, or vape shops and bars on every corner - so we write blanket rules restricting certain kinds of construction and grant power to the people already living there for changes to the code itself and approval over all buildings matching the existing code this puts all the power in two types of people - those entrenched in this process with political and financial power, and existing homeowners. Both of these groups then use their power to preserve what they already have and impose their ideal of a neighborhood over everyone else and because we live in America not only do the people in power act knowingly in the interest of preserving their wealth and power but also incorporate their biases - especially against members of a class or race - into exclusio this is so fundamentally broken and yet as a fundamental construct American cities lack any mechanism for questioning the concentration of power in homeowners and it is crazy. in a transit starved stretch of Brooklyn, homeowners blocked a bus lane from going up just because they wouldn't let go of a hundred parking spots during weekday business hours. entire communities suffer because people who own homes and cars refuse to compromise
  - aidenn0 9y ago
    I find high-rise buildings to be a straw-man. You can get amazing density with 3-story apartment buildings, but those are rare in a lot of expensive markets.
    - clairity 9y ago
      cities should allow up to 6-story buildings in residential areas, because that's the reasonable max height of a wood frame building (it used to be 4 stories, but i hear construction practices have improved to allow up to 6). wood frame is cheaper to build than either concrete or steel, which are the other predominant building materials (which allow much taller builds). http://missingmiddlehousing.com/ http://missingmiddlehousing.com/
  - rayiner 9y ago
    What's wrong with building a high rise on land you own?
- rayiner 9y ago
  Because state and local governments hate America.
dredmorbius 9y ago
ThatsThePoint.jpg