8 ms·
Socioeconomic group classification based on user features [pdf]
- isp 8y agoFacebook patent application (US 20180032883) for "classifiers input information about a user and output a probability that the user belongs to a given socioeconomic group". Relevant Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/WolfieChristl/status/960630738256367617 https://twitter.com/WolfieChristl/status/960630738256367617 Copy-and-paste friendly version of the patent application, but without images: http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220180032883%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20180032883&RS=DN/20180032883 http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=H... Limited news coverage, e.g., http://expressnewsline.com/2018/02/05/facebook-to-develop-system-to-track-users-socioeconomic.html http://expressnewsline.com/2018/02/05/facebook-to-develop-sy... Full disclosure: repost of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16315606 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16315606 (from 70 days ago). Reposted by explicit request of the mods. May now be exceptionally topical in light of the Facebook revelations that have occurred since.
- poster123 8y agoIs this a bad thing? Advertisers want this. It does not make sense to market luxury cars to the poor, for example.
- ccccccccccccc 8y agoIt's a good thing for business, yes, but there are a lot of ethical implications surrounding socioeconomic/behavioural predictions. I've been getting the feeling recently that Facebook has successfully circumvented decades of regulation on human studies since their research isn't (correct me if I'm wrong) governed by the Institutional Review Board
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ozim 8y agoTo "clickbait" poor person with luxury car is easier than rich person. It is not a bad thing because in the end yes, will be discriminated at the counter by amount of money they have. Of course no one should get stuff for free. It is bad in general, because people will be closed by their socioeconomic status and will have less possibilities to see better things. It can reduce economic mobility by some business not wanting to deal with people who are classified by automatic classifiers, even though they might have more money, be smarter, than what their FB history is telling.
- sevensor 8y ago> It does not make sense to market luxury cars to the poor, Luxury cars aren't the concern. It's tumbrels we're worried about.
- Arqu 8y agoPersonally, even with the recent news, I'm still having mixed feeling about the whole ordeal. On one side I'm not against using/collecting data for the purpose of better content (=better engagement) or more targeted ads (still better than looking at ads that have nothing to do with me). Though I am for it to be anonymized (ie separating the personal data from the generic things like names from items bought) however that is pretty much useless from the moment you enter your name anywhere as they can basically fingerprint the data and match it up to you anyways. On the flipside of this, I don't like the direction this all is going - sure I like tailored content, but at what point do we reach a threshold where people are just shoved content down their throat since they cant find stuff outside these mechanisms to broaden their view and interests. More related to this topic, as long as the data is there, someone will analyze it, and socioeconomic targeting has been done for a while already (you don't market 8K curved suround sound TVs to 90 year olds) this is just a step up. However I'm a bit scared of when we reach the tipping point on content in terms of targeting: what we might want to see vs what it might want us to see.
- pacala 8y agoAds are a [D]DOS on your brain computing power. Targeted or not.
- Arqu 8y agoThat's true, and I generally dislike them, thus I run an ad blocker and some limits on JS. However I have a bit of a broader view on the topic. For one instance, we wouldn't have many of the things we have without the economic backbone of the internet - ads. Google Maps - No, E Mail services - No and many more as they are just to drive user engagement to serve more ads or to lock you into the rest of their ecosystems hence Android and iOS and their integrations with the services. However I don't mind at all some higher quality marketing like technical blogs with some real value + a plug for their service on how it solves the problem, and similar sponsored content. There is almost always to sides to both stories.
- pacala 8y ago
- walterbell 8y agoWhat if one country wants their poor to stay poor, and one country wants their poor to aspire to be rich, so they can take advantage of opportunity for upward mobility?
- cirgue 8y agoWhy would this patent or the associated technology (which in my view is barely patenable) have any bearing on a governments ability to do this? Governments have been doing this very successfully for thousands of years without the need of a machine learning model.
- walterbell 8y agoThey were doing this without competition from a machine learning model.
- zwaps 8y agoThis is written so broad... facebook basically has just patented statistical classification if its output are socioeconomics? How can this be legal? Facebook did not invent machine learning. How can they patent it?
- _rpd 8y agoThis is not a patent. It is an application for a patent. The claims may be rejected during the application examination process, for example, if the examiner determines that the claims are obvious in light of the prior art.
- paulie_a 8y agoLet's be honest, the patent will be granted. Patents are easy to get. Then everyone else ignores the vast majority of them in the real world.
- _rpd 8y agoIt depends on the art unit processing the application[0]. If your application is classified as a 'software-related business method', your chances drop dramatically. [0] http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2015/05/21/hardest-easiest-art-units/id=57864/ http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2015/05/21/hardest-easiest-art-uni...
- Lionsion 8y ago> Let's be honest, the patent will be granted. Is there any kind of public comment period where the patent's claims to novelty could be disputed? I feel like a lot of the worst patents may be granted because no one else was watching. You might even be able to find prior art someplace you don't expect, like some sociology academic paper.
- aqme28 8y agoI'm not if it's at all effective, but Stack Exchange has a product for that https://patents.stackexchange.com/ https://patents.stackexchange.com/
- prepend 8y agoThis could be really useful for targeted public Health messaging and services. TV stations need to broadcast a certain number of hours of public good programming. Online ads should show a percentage of ads for public good. An algorithm like this could do good since it may have better sensitivity and specificity than self reported data but would need to be used by non-FB people to make sure that it’s really for public good rather than has the appearance of public good.
- PeterStuer 8y ago... and ketchup counts as a vegetable in a healthy school lunch. Good luck with those "public 'health' messages".
- vonmoltke 8y agoNo, it doesn't. That proposed guideline, as ludicrous as it was to even be proposed, was rightly rejected and never went into force.
- Retra 8y agoAnd this is why an expert propagandist understands that you don't need to prove anything. You just say it (preferably with some emotionally-wrapped slogan), and three to ten years later, people will simply recite what you've said as though it is fact. Of course, you can pad it in weasel words and boring facts. Nobody will remember those parts of the message anyway.
- OldArrow 8y agoI still think Facebook is US government tool . How it was spread in 2006 - 2010 on all foringe media channels financed by USAID. Most people in US still think that USAID is free money to foringers and want it to cut.
- nimbius 8y agoThis has powerful implications I believe in the United States and other nations that are made to hold the tacit communal belief that they are a largely middle-class society. Certainly, you could classify these groups in a closed process and operate to exploit their individual wants and desires, which is something existing models of capitalist industry engage in already. However, what if Facebook were to do this all transparently? For example, being sold something with the explicit revelation that your economic class is the primary consumer?
- VLM 8y agoThe patent seems to be based on defining class solely on the dollar value of last years income, whereas the actual measures of class membership take other forms. There's nothing wrong or useless about advertising based on W-2 income level; but that won't have greater sociological effects on economic class or whatever. Of course via the magic of widely shared credit reports, everyone already knows actual class breakdowns based on class differences in personal balance sheets and other measures.
- drtillberg 8y agoIt appears that FB [edit: is attempting to patent] a questionnaire that allows them to guess your socioeconomic status from, for example, where you live, how old you are, and how many internet-connected appliances you have. Another argument for overhaul of the US patent system, and to delete the FB app.
- eddieschod 8y agoIs this ethical?
- swebs 8y agoWell it's marketing, so no.
- dumbfounder 8y agoAn ethical spin can be made on it, as Zuck did in his testimony. He is making advertising more efficient for small businesses, which helps those businesses grow. That is a good goal, and I believe this to be true. We just need to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze.
- mad_tortoise 8y agoFacebook and being ethical generally are mutually exclusive.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- narrator 8y agoThis probably wouldn't hold up in court because it's essentially doing something marketers have been doing forever, but on a computer[1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Bilski https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Bilski
- mkirklions 8y agoGod I hate patents.
- press-any-key 8y agoWant to see this applied to Warren Buffet who lives in a reasonably modest house, in a modest city, and shuns computers.
- douglaswlance 8y agoThat's not how statistics works. They're classifying groups, not individuals.
- emiliobumachar 8y agoReally? Could you please elaborate? I would think they are classifying each individual into one of many groups, each group being an arbitrarily delineated social class. If that's true, than Mr. Buffet would indeed have the potential to be misclassified, because his behaviours ("features") are atypical of people as rich as him.
- ada1981 8y agoThey may also look at the socioeconomic status of the people you associate with and make inferences.
- press-any-key 8y ago"... socialeconomic group of users ...'
- monochromatic 8y ago1. This is just an application, not a granted patent. 2. The title barely matters at all. The claims define what they’re trying to patent.
- pacaro 8y agoI wish people wouldn’t post direct links to patents. The advice from the IP lawyers at every company I’ve worked for (Microsoft, Dropbox, Amazon, Google) has been to never read patents or patent applications.
- Hoagy 8y agoDid they explain why?
- osteele 8y agoThis is standard legal advice. It reduces the chance that an infringer will be found guilty of a willful violation, that results in treble damages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treble_damages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treble_damages
- senatorobama 8y agoThe U.S. has retarded laws.
- wmblaettler 8y agoI'm honestly curious what the aversion is to reading patents and patent applications. Is it to avoid suspect patent infringement by being able to claim ignorance? i.e. "I have not read any patent that relates to some work that I've created wholly on my own that out of coincidence achieves the same as a patented work." Does that actually hold up if defending IP?
- pacaro 8y agoYeah, as osteele points out, it moves the needle from unknowing infringement to willful infringement. And willful infringement carries triple damages. When people have asked “how would they even know?”, there are usually two answers: 1) don’t underestimate what can come out in discovery, and 2) no lawyer is going to advise perjuring yourself
- 8y ago
- otterley 8y agoMods: can you change the title, please? This is a patent application; no patent has yet been issued.
- sctb 8y agoYes, we've updated the headline. Thanks!
- robodale 8y agoIt's just another metric for targeted advertising.
- bediger4000 8y agoHow do I find out if I'm one of The Poors or not?
- billysielu 8y agoDo you Share stuff from pages designed to be viral, e.g. ladbible? Does your profile picture contain anime/cat/dog features on your face? If the anwer to both is no, you're clear.
- osteele 8y agoA patent doesn’t grant the assignee the right to use a technique. It grants them the right to keep others from doing so. Whether or not this patent is granted, a separate mechanism, such as regulation or legislation, would be necessary to prevent Facebook from employing the methods it claims — unless someone else, who could afford to litigate it and wouldn’t license to Facebook (a ”non-practicing non-licensing entity” (NPNLE), or “benevolent troll”?), had patented it first.
- aramanto 8y agoI recommend the blog www.fosspatents.com to get an idea the patents sector
- clojurestan 8y agoJust ask if they like goldeneye or metal gear solid
- js8 8y agoOr ask if they like Napoleon Dynamite: https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/magazine/23Netflix-t.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/magazine/23Netflix-t.html
- fromMars 8y agoWow. I can't believe they are trying to patent this...
- wufufufu 8y agoQuite the incriminating patent title, and it's not even necessary. Couldn't they just title it "group classification based on user features"? It's like FB is trying to push us in the direction of China[1] and they don't care who knows it. [1] http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2131737/chinas-credit-ratings-plan-social-media-medium-social-control http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2131737/chinas...
- diehunde 8y agoWait, is this controversial because of what are they doing with the data? Or because they are trying to patent something it shouldn't be patentable ?
- saagarjha 8y agoBoth.
- monochromatic 8y agoIt’s controversial because people don’t understand patents.
- binalpatel 8y agoThis seems like Facebook's trying to break more into the realm that the big credit agencies have occupied re: data products. All the big credit agencies (Experian, Equifax, Transunion, etc) have products that cluster people into socioeconomic groups, with ridiculous names. https://www.experian.com/assets/marketing-services/brochures/mosaic-brochure.pdf https://www.experian.com/assets/marketing-services/brochures... Examples from that brochure: "American Royalty" "Small Town Shallow Pockets" "Full Pockets, Empty Nests"
- woolvalley 8y agoIf your looking for the descriptions for the categories, here is one link: http://missioninsite.com/PDF_Files/Mosaic_Descriptions%20Group-Segments_%20USA%20Final%20Cover%20081312.pdf http://missioninsite.com/PDF_Files/Mosaic_Descriptions%20Gro...
- mindslight 8y agoLetting them hide behind their branding as "credit agencies" is ridiculously naive in this day and age. They are surveillance companies. Faceboot's only difference is being a relative newcomer compared to the incumbents. This entire surveillance industry is an escalating crime against humanity.
- WontLastLong 8y agoThis is, literally, cyber phrenology. How can Silicon Valley employees support this kind of crap? This is a tool to assist in automated censorship: oh, this person claiming to be black isn't clicking like a black man, he must be a troll and we must stop fake news! You do realize how easy that is to compromise, right? https://archive.fo/eYWmC https://archive.fo/eYWmC
- azinman2 8y agoOr more likely... targeted ads.
- WontLastLong 8y agoWhy do you think they are mutually exclusive?
- nomy99 8y agoI was reading through the paper, and it read like a female gathering rating their boyfriends or new suitors. The algorithm depicted in figure 2 goes, how old is he? over 30 uh? Does he have a house? Yea? Nice, Where is it? Toronto, WOW. I shouldn't be surprised that a machine learning neural model is classified on the merit of users who are the nosiest classifiers :).
- 131012 8y agoWe haven't patented it, but sociology has studied mating through the lens of socioeconomic classes for a while. What you describe is upper middle class mating! You just forgot to ask if he is an engineer, a physician or a lawyer.
- nomy99 8y agoI think this is brilliant. We might discover more about society through the algorithms that spin off from profit based ventures.
- mylons 8y agoFig 2 basically encompasses what most machine learning production services look like, minus the socioeconomic classifier. Should we all start trying to patent our classifiers now?
- jeffreyrogers 8y agoThe claims section (at the end of the document) is what is used to determine infringement. The rest of the document (including the figures) just illustrates what the invention is and describes how to make it.
- clavalle 8y agoAnd the claims section basically says 'collect online data, compare it to a trained socioeconomic classifier and classify said data into socioeconomic groups'.
- gcb0 8y agotake any invention patent from before computers. any. a machinist can just say "all the steps to produce that device can be done in a lathe. should we all start to patent any part we turn in a lathe now?" and while I agree that all patents are bad, the answer still is Yes.
- pjonesdotca 8y agoKinda shocked that someone would apply for a patent for a tool that is essentially a decision tree.
- jeffreyrogers 8y agoMost commenters seem unclear on how patents work in the US, so here's a brief summary: 1. Patents starts out as patent applications (what this document is). A patent application by itself doesn't give you any legal rights. 2. After waiting a year or more, your patent application gets reviewed by a USPTO examiner. The examiner either approves it and grants you a patent contingent on you paying a fee, or (more likely) tells you what's wrong with your patent application or cites prior art that already does what you claim and asks you to make changes. 3. All parts of the patent application except the claims section (which is the very last part) are for background and explanation only. They don't determine what you're patenting or whether someone is infringing your patent. These sections are supposed to be clear enough that someone with ordinary skill in whatever field your invention comes from could read these parts of your patent and reproduce your invention. 4. The claims section (which starts with "What is claimed is:") is very carefully worded to be as unambiguous as possible and carefully lay out exactly what the invention is and what its scope is. Any good patent agent or attorney will make these claims as broad as possible while still being patentable so that you get the broadest monopoly possible and have the greatest chance of successfully prosecuting an infringer. 5. The claims section is the only part that matters for determining infringement. The text in the rest of the patent and the figures show what the invention is so that someone can reproduce it, but they aren't used to determine the scope of your invention.
- John_KZ 8y agoI have 2 questions: -Why do they feel the need to patent this? The algorithm look trivial. -How is this even acceptable? Making decisions based on such "predictors" should be (and often is) illegal. >Oh, you're physically disabled? I predict this will cause you emotional distress and you will perform badly in my college. Sorry, you're rejected. >Oh, you're black? Sorry, my predictors predict you're a criminal! Don't worry, the police will arrive soon. You are free to use other banking institutions. >Oh, you're poor? Sorry sir, we don't sell cars to poor people, because our predictors say they typically use our free repair services! That costs us money, please buy a used car from craigslist or something. I can't comprehend how they could publish and acknowledge using this kind of profiling. And that's without getting into politics.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ada1981 8y agoI'd assume they are already using this. FB ads already allow you to target ads based on household income.