5 ms·

> countersteering is always required Only on a motorbike.

marodox 9y ago
> If you lean left, front wheel will "do" countersteering itself The same applies to a bicycle.
ioseph 9y ago
> Only on a motorbike. Only above a certain speed, at low speeds countersteering will not work Similarly above a certain speed on a bicycle countersteering is the only way you can turn
- schoen 9y ago
  Some people seem to describe this difference as unconscious countersteering versus deliberate countersteering, that is, that the difference isn't really whether you're countersteering or not, but whether the countersteer is large enough that you have to do it "on purpose".
jstanley 9y ago
The steering geometry is exactly the same. The only time you steer left to go left is if you're going so slowly that the only reason the bike doesn't fall over is because of your near-superhuman balance. That is to say, when you're practically at a standstill. Anywhere approaching walking pace or above, if you try to turn left by steering left, you'll fall off the right hand side before you make any appreciable turn.
- baud147258 9y ago
  > if you try to turn left by steering left Well, if you're leaning left when steering left, I don't see how you'll fall to the right
  - scatters 9y ago
    That's the issue; how do you lean left to start with? If the human-bicycle system has its center of gravity over the wheel line, shifting your weight relative to the bike doesn't move the center of gravity - you lean one way, the bike leans the other, and you end up in the same overall position. The only way to initiate a lean to the left is to countersteer to the right.
    - baud147258 9y ago
      That's weird since I don't think I'm countersteering when turning. Or perhaps I'm doing it unconsciously?
      - function_seven 9y ago
        > Or perhaps I'm doing it unconsciously? You are. I proved this to myself once by applying pressure to the handlebars using only the palm of my hands on the backside of each handle. Even at very slow speeds, I could not for the life of me turn left by applying pressure only to the right bar (to turn the front wheel to the left). No amount of leaning helped. To lean the bike, I needed to create some external force to push it over. Leaning my own body to the left just made the bike lean to the right.
        baud147258 9y ago
        I'll have to check, because I don't believe it. I wonder who's right: me or a bunch of randos on an internet thread.
        schoen 9y ago
        I've seen the same claim from a lot of people who seemed to have thought about it a lot: that you always countersteer on a two-wheeled vehicle, but you only do so consciously if you're riding a very fast vehicle or you want to turn extremely quickly. (A deliberate countersteer is taught in some bicycle safety classes as an "emergency quick turn".) This is counterintuitive to me as a regular cyclist, but I realize that most of my cycling skills are completely unconscious, so I don't have a lot of confidence in my ability to describe exactly what I'm doing on my bike.

> If you lean left, front wheel will "do" countersteering itself The same applies to a bicycle.

> Only on a motorbike. Only above a certain speed, at low speeds countersteering will not work Similarly above a certain speed on a bicycle countersteering is the only way you can turn

schoen 9y ago
Some people seem to describe this difference as unconscious countersteering versus deliberate countersteering, that is, that the difference isn't really whether you're countersteering or not, but whether the countersteer is large enough that you have to do it "on purpose".

jstanley 9y ago

The steering geometry is exactly the same. The only time you steer left to go left is if you're going so slowly that the only reason the bike doesn't fall over is because of your near-superhuman balance. That is to say, when you're practically at a standstill. Anywhere approaching walking pace or above, if you try to turn left by steering left, you'll fall off the right hand side before you make any appreciable turn.

baud147258 9y ago
> if you try to turn left by steering left Well, if you're leaning left when steering left, I don't see how you'll fall to the right
- scatters 9y ago
  That's the issue; how do you lean left to start with? If the human-bicycle system has its center of gravity over the wheel line, shifting your weight relative to the bike doesn't move the center of gravity - you lean one way, the bike leans the other, and you end up in the same overall position. The only way to initiate a lean to the left is to countersteer to the right.
  - baud147258 9y ago
    That's weird since I don't think I'm countersteering when turning. Or perhaps I'm doing it unconsciously?
    - function_seven 9y ago
      > Or perhaps I'm doing it unconsciously? You are. I proved this to myself once by applying pressure to the handlebars using only the palm of my hands on the backside of each handle. Even at very slow speeds, I could not for the life of me turn left by applying pressure only to the right bar (to turn the front wheel to the left). No amount of leaning helped. To lean the bike, I needed to create some external force to push it over. Leaning my own body to the left just made the bike lean to the right.
      - baud147258 9y ago
        I'll have to check, because I don't believe it. I wonder who's right: me or a bunch of randos on an internet thread.
        schoen 9y ago
        I've seen the same claim from a lot of people who seemed to have thought about it a lot: that you always countersteer on a two-wheeled vehicle, but you only do so consciously if you're riding a very fast vehicle or you want to turn extremely quickly. (A deliberate countersteer is taught in some bicycle safety classes as an "emergency quick turn".) This is counterintuitive to me as a regular cyclist, but I realize that most of my cycling skills are completely unconscious, so I don't have a lot of confidence in my ability to describe exactly what I'm doing on my bike.