8 ms·

I'd like to especially highlight your 'at speed' point here. It's often claimed that _all_ steering on a bike requires countersteering, but that is false. Cou

by NLips 8y ago

I'd like to especially highlight your 'at speed' point here. It's often claimed that _all_ steering on a bike requires countersteering, but that is false. Countersteering allows rapid change of direction, but if you're going in a straight line, then lean left and gently steer left (or just lean left and allowing the front wheel to steer itself), you _will_ go left, no countersteering required.

ozim 8y ago
If you lean left, front wheel will "do" countersteering itself (same as noted). Since gyroscopic effect on bike is not so big and speed, mass is not bigger than rider it is not noticable. For motorbike you cannot just lean hence need for explicit countersteering because of much higher forces involved. So I think it is correct to say that countersteering is always required.
- baud147258 8y ago
  > countersteering is always required Only on a motorbike.
  - marodox 8y ago
    > If you lean left, front wheel will "do" countersteering itself The same applies to a bicycle.
  - ioseph 8y ago
    > Only on a motorbike. Only above a certain speed, at low speeds countersteering will not work Similarly above a certain speed on a bicycle countersteering is the only way you can turn
    - schoen 8y ago
      Some people seem to describe this difference as unconscious countersteering versus deliberate countersteering, that is, that the difference isn't really whether you're countersteering or not, but whether the countersteer is large enough that you have to do it "on purpose".
  - jstanley 8y ago
    The steering geometry is exactly the same. The only time you steer left to go left is if you're going so slowly that the only reason the bike doesn't fall over is because of your near-superhuman balance. That is to say, when you're practically at a standstill. Anywhere approaching walking pace or above, if you try to turn left by steering left, you'll fall off the right hand side before you make any appreciable turn.
    - baud147258 8y ago
      > if you try to turn left by steering left Well, if you're leaning left when steering left, I don't see how you'll fall to the right
      - scatters 8y ago
        That's the issue; how do you lean left to start with? If the human-bicycle system has its center of gravity over the wheel line, shifting your weight relative to the bike doesn't move the center of gravity - you lean one way, the bike leans the other, and you end up in the same overall position. The only way to initiate a lean to the left is to countersteer to the right.
        baud147258 8y ago
        That's weird since I don't think I'm countersteering when turning. Or perhaps I'm doing it unconsciously?
        function_seven 8y ago
        > Or perhaps I'm doing it unconsciously? You are. I proved this to myself once by applying pressure to the handlebars using only the palm of my hands on the backside of each handle. Even at very slow speeds, I could not for the life of me turn left by applying pressure only to the right bar (to turn the front wheel to the left). No amount of leaning helped. To lean the bike, I needed to create some external force to push it over. Leaning my own body to the left just made the bike lean to the right.
- Retric 8y ago
  It's timing dependent. Turning right and momentum 'pushes' your body to the left, but with the correct timing you end up countering that force while keeping the bike absolutely vertical. PS: Picture how a car turns, the wheels are vertical and you can you can turn without counter steering just fine but the weight externally offset. The difference with a bike / motorcycle is just how difficult it is to balance.
  - ozim 8y ago
    It is not timing it is balance of mass and conservation of energy. Car has totally different mass distribution. So energy conservation is also different.
- buvanshak 8y ago
  >If you lean left, front wheel will "do" countersteering itself (same as noted). I am not sure. If you lean left, then the handle bar ll slightly turn left automatically. In actual countersteering, it greatly helps only because it helps to quickly initiate a tilt in the required direction. For example, if you want to go to left, then turn the handle bar to the right, which causes the front wheel to slight start to offset in the right, which in turn causes the whole bike to tilt to left, and once it start to tilt to the left, then the normal process of turning is applied...
  - ska 8y ago
    It's always countersteering. Doesn't even matter if your hands are on the bars (really). When you lean to (your) left, the center of mass of you+bike goes left of the plane of the wheels, this causes the front wheel to rotate away (i.e. right) from the motion slightly which causes you to bank left and the front wheel comes around to meet it until you are in equilibrium again. Countersteering doesn't "help", it's just unavoidable. Being aware of it helps you have better control. At very low velocities the effect is so minor you probably can't notice (and steering angles are large).
    - buvanshak 8y ago
      > When you lean to (your) left, the center of mass of you+bike goes left of the plane of the wheels, this causes the front wheel to rotate away This does not seem correct. Why does it cause the front wheel to rotate away (right) ? If you lean a stationary cycle to the left, the front wheel will turn left.
      - jonsen 8y ago
        If you lean your body to the left the bike reacts by leaning to the right. Your body can only move by pushing the bike in the opposite direction.
        buvanshak 8y ago
        That is bullshit. If I just lean to the left, the bike does not "react" by leaning to the right. If I lean to the left without touching the handle bars, the cycle ll start turning to the left. With counter steering, it can be made much quicker and in a much responsive fashion.
scottdupoy 8y ago
That's my experience too. If you very slowly lean to one side then you can start the turn that way. Countersteering moves the bike to one side which means you're no longer balanced and so rapidly fall the other way initiating the turn.
baud147258 8y ago
By leaning and letting the front wheel steer itself, you can turn with hands off the handlebar. When I used a bike to go to the train station, I'd often bike without touching the handlebar for parts of the ride, including the turns. Yes, I was young and stupid.
- hutzlibu 8y ago
  Maybe I am still young and stupid, but I cycle a lot and as often without hands on as the situation allows... It is just much more comfortable this way. Bu yes, also more dangerous, so in difficult trafic I usually don't do it
  - komali2 8y ago
    One pothole man. One pothole all it takes. I'm sure you already know but just in case, take it from me. Picking gravel out of my arm for hours after.
    - baud147258 8y ago
      Yeah, I was lucky that I was doing this in an area with good roads. At least our taxes got us that.
    - lenocinor 8y ago
      It's true, but in all the years of my childhood when I did this (and I rode and turned no-handed often), I never once had an accident when my hands were off the handlebars. Your warning is still useful, I think, but I also think good judgment goes a long way here.
    - hutzlibu 8y ago
      Yeah "Picking gravel out of my arm for hours after." this I know as well, but the last time I fell, was 10+ years ago ... And I even drive at night, without light on forrest roads without hands ;) So maybe I push my luck too much, but I am also confident in my skills and reflexes ...
simias 8y ago
Motorcycle courses put a lot of emphasis on countersteering because motorcycles go much faster and weight a lot more than a bike so you need to familiarize yourself with the effect from the get go unlike regular bikes where you generally start by going very slowly and the low bike-to-meat weight ratio means that it's relatively easy to steer by leaning with your body as you mention. As soon as you go over, say, 20km/h it's critical to learn how to countersteer properly if you want to keep control. Try turning on a 200kg motorcycle going at 100km/h by simply leaning on it, you'll be disappointed... See for instance https://youtu.be/8_5Z3jyO2pA?t=2m24s https://youtu.be/8_5Z3jyO2pA?t=2m24s . Later on the video they show that letting go of the handles and leaning with your body also works but only because it actually causes the bike to countersteer "on its own".
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- sundvor 8y ago
  Yep. It is even more pronounced on a race track with long sweeping turns, even higher speeds, and nothing else in the world to worry about# (like traffic). The faster that front wheel spins, the more it wants to keep on doing that just as before (gyro). You will be physically pushing the left hand and pulling your right to set the bike up for a left turn, not just "thinking" it - so as to speak. Of course it is entirely intuitive, until perhaps you stop to think about what actions you are taking, and then realise yeah that's countersteering all right. #) It's been a few years for me now and I only got a few ride days in after also completing Superbike Cornering School lessons, but I found the art of riding my (then) 600cc GSXR motorcycle on a high speed circuit (Phillip Island) extremely meditative - and exhilarating, especially after learning the function of the knee sliders to assist with controlling lean.
dahart 8y ago
> It's often claimed that _all_ steering on a bike requires countersteering, but that is false. Sounds like you've never ridden a motorcycle? It's obvious on a motorcycle that you counter-steer all the way through a turn. If you analyze bike steering more carefully, you will also find that you're always counter-steering. But the definition of counter-steering might be different than you think. You have to think about the front wheel's turn angle in relation to your turning radius. If you're riding in a right turn circle, then your wheel position will be turned right and not changing. In order to change that turning radius, you will always steer in the opposite direction of your desired direction relative to where your steering is at steady state. So counter steering doesn't mean that if you are turning right your wheel is left of center. Counter steering means that to turn more right, you need to steer left of where you were. When making small adjustments, your steer might be right of center at all times even though you go from a right turn to a sharper right turn. In other words, it's the delta of your steering angle that is always counter, not the position of your steering angle. Does that make sense? One easy way to understand why you're always counter-steering was given in the video: a bike is physically equivalent to an inverted pendulum. In order to move the pendulum in a given direction, you always have to move the base the other way, at all times. This is true on a bike too.
- JKCalhoun 8y ago
  > Sounds like you've never ridden a motorcycle? It's obvious on a motorcycle that you counter-steer all the way through a turn. Once the turn has been initiated and you are in the turn, I don't believe you continue to counter-steer. I think instead that once in a turn you feel a force trying to continue the front wheel deeper into the turn and you must maintain a counter force to prevent that. It seems unlikely that the front wheel is actually angled out away from the turn.
  - dahart 8y ago
    > Once the turn has been initiated and you are in the turn, I don't believe you continue to counter-steer. Sounds like you haven't ridden a motorcycle? In a hard right turn, you will need to keep constant pushing pressure on the right handle (steering left) in order to stay in the turn. And maybe you didn't follow the rest of my comment? Counter-steering doesn't mean your wheel is left of center during a right turn. It's referring to a change in turning radius. At all times. Yes, your wheel might be turned right during the stable lean angle of a right turn (or it might not) but "counter steering" is referring to when you change your turning radius. You always steer the opposite direction that you were steering before. If you're in a right turn and want to turn sharper, you steer the wheel left of wherever it is. If you're in a right turn and want to straighten out, you steer the wheel right of wherever it is. It doesn't matter where the wheel is, all that matters is which direction the change happens. If you're in a stable lean with a constant turning radius, then your steering isn't changing, so I guess perhaps technically you're not counter-steering, because you're not steering? This is more confusing than clarifying, and not always true anyway. It's better to realize that the "counter" in counter steering is referring to the derivative, not the absolute value. It's referring to the change in steering, not the angle the wheel is turned. > It seems unlikely that the front wheel is actually angled out away from the turn. You might want to google gp moto pictures before making claims, you can find tons of images of racers in the middle of the turn with the wheel angled outward. For example: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dtCD63fKw58/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dtCD63fKw58/maxresdefault.jpg
NLips 8y ago
I've introduced confusion here by talking about leaning left. I should have said 'shift your weight such that the bike leans left'. See my other comment for a fuller explanation.

by NLips 8y ago

ozim 8y ago

If you lean left, front wheel will "do" countersteering itself (same as noted). Since gyroscopic effect on bike is not so big and speed, mass is not bigger than rider it is not noticable. For motorbike you cannot just lean hence need for explicit countersteering because of much higher forces involved. So I think it is correct to say that countersteering is always required.

baud147258 8y ago
> countersteering is always required Only on a motorbike.
- marodox 8y ago
  > If you lean left, front wheel will "do" countersteering itself The same applies to a bicycle.
- ioseph 8y ago
  > Only on a motorbike. Only above a certain speed, at low speeds countersteering will not work Similarly above a certain speed on a bicycle countersteering is the only way you can turn
  - schoen 8y ago
    Some people seem to describe this difference as unconscious countersteering versus deliberate countersteering, that is, that the difference isn't really whether you're countersteering or not, but whether the countersteer is large enough that you have to do it "on purpose".
- jstanley 8y ago
  The steering geometry is exactly the same. The only time you steer left to go left is if you're going so slowly that the only reason the bike doesn't fall over is because of your near-superhuman balance. That is to say, when you're practically at a standstill. Anywhere approaching walking pace or above, if you try to turn left by steering left, you'll fall off the right hand side before you make any appreciable turn.
  - baud147258 8y ago
    > if you try to turn left by steering left Well, if you're leaning left when steering left, I don't see how you'll fall to the right
    - scatters 8y ago
      That's the issue; how do you lean left to start with? If the human-bicycle system has its center of gravity over the wheel line, shifting your weight relative to the bike doesn't move the center of gravity - you lean one way, the bike leans the other, and you end up in the same overall position. The only way to initiate a lean to the left is to countersteer to the right.
      - baud147258 8y ago
        That's weird since I don't think I'm countersteering when turning. Or perhaps I'm doing it unconsciously?
        function_seven 8y ago
        > Or perhaps I'm doing it unconsciously? You are. I proved this to myself once by applying pressure to the handlebars using only the palm of my hands on the backside of each handle. Even at very slow speeds, I could not for the life of me turn left by applying pressure only to the right bar (to turn the front wheel to the left). No amount of leaning helped. To lean the bike, I needed to create some external force to push it over. Leaning my own body to the left just made the bike lean to the right.
Retric 8y ago
It's timing dependent. Turning right and momentum 'pushes' your body to the left, but with the correct timing you end up countering that force while keeping the bike absolutely vertical. PS: Picture how a car turns, the wheels are vertical and you can you can turn without counter steering just fine but the weight externally offset. The difference with a bike / motorcycle is just how difficult it is to balance.
- ozim 8y ago
  It is not timing it is balance of mass and conservation of energy. Car has totally different mass distribution. So energy conservation is also different.
buvanshak 8y ago
>If you lean left, front wheel will "do" countersteering itself (same as noted). I am not sure. If you lean left, then the handle bar ll slightly turn left automatically. In actual countersteering, it greatly helps only because it helps to quickly initiate a tilt in the required direction. For example, if you want to go to left, then turn the handle bar to the right, which causes the front wheel to slight start to offset in the right, which in turn causes the whole bike to tilt to left, and once it start to tilt to the left, then the normal process of turning is applied...
- ska 8y ago
  It's always countersteering. Doesn't even matter if your hands are on the bars (really). When you lean to (your) left, the center of mass of you+bike goes left of the plane of the wheels, this causes the front wheel to rotate away (i.e. right) from the motion slightly which causes you to bank left and the front wheel comes around to meet it until you are in equilibrium again. Countersteering doesn't "help", it's just unavoidable. Being aware of it helps you have better control. At very low velocities the effect is so minor you probably can't notice (and steering angles are large).
  - buvanshak 8y ago
    > When you lean to (your) left, the center of mass of you+bike goes left of the plane of the wheels, this causes the front wheel to rotate away This does not seem correct. Why does it cause the front wheel to rotate away (right) ? If you lean a stationary cycle to the left, the front wheel will turn left.
    - jonsen 8y ago
      If you lean your body to the left the bike reacts by leaning to the right. Your body can only move by pushing the bike in the opposite direction.
      - buvanshak 8y ago
        That is bullshit. If I just lean to the left, the bike does not "react" by leaning to the right. If I lean to the left without touching the handle bars, the cycle ll start turning to the left. With counter steering, it can be made much quicker and in a much responsive fashion.

scottdupoy 8y ago

That's my experience too. If you very slowly lean to one side then you can start the turn that way. Countersteering moves the bike to one side which means you're no longer balanced and so rapidly fall the other way initiating the turn.

baud147258 8y ago

By leaning and letting the front wheel steer itself, you can turn with hands off the handlebar. When I used a bike to go to the train station, I'd often bike without touching the handlebar for parts of the ride, including the turns. Yes, I was young and stupid.

hutzlibu 8y ago
Maybe I am still young and stupid, but I cycle a lot and as often without hands on as the situation allows... It is just much more comfortable this way. Bu yes, also more dangerous, so in difficult trafic I usually don't do it
- komali2 8y ago
  One pothole man. One pothole all it takes. I'm sure you already know but just in case, take it from me. Picking gravel out of my arm for hours after.
  - baud147258 8y ago
    Yeah, I was lucky that I was doing this in an area with good roads. At least our taxes got us that.
  - lenocinor 8y ago
    It's true, but in all the years of my childhood when I did this (and I rode and turned no-handed often), I never once had an accident when my hands were off the handlebars. Your warning is still useful, I think, but I also think good judgment goes a long way here.
  - hutzlibu 8y ago
    Yeah "Picking gravel out of my arm for hours after." this I know as well, but the last time I fell, was 10+ years ago ... And I even drive at night, without light on forrest roads without hands ;) So maybe I push my luck too much, but I am also confident in my skills and reflexes ...

simias 8y ago

Motorcycle courses put a lot of emphasis on countersteering because motorcycles go much faster and weight a lot more than a bike so you need to familiarize yourself with the effect from the get go unlike regular bikes where you generally start by going very slowly and the low bike-to-meat weight ratio means that it's relatively easy to steer by leaning with your body as you mention. As soon as you go over, say, 20km/h it's critical to learn how to countersteer properly if you want to keep control. Try turning on a 200kg motorcycle going at 100km/h by simply leaning on it, you'll be disappointed... See for instance https://youtu.be/8_5Z3jyO2pA?t=2m24s https://youtu.be/8_5Z3jyO2pA?t=2m24s . Later on the video they show that letting go of the handles and leaning with your body also works but only because it actually causes the bike to countersteer "on its own".

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
sundvor 8y ago
Yep. It is even more pronounced on a race track with long sweeping turns, even higher speeds, and nothing else in the world to worry about# (like traffic). The faster that front wheel spins, the more it wants to keep on doing that just as before (gyro). You will be physically pushing the left hand and pulling your right to set the bike up for a left turn, not just "thinking" it - so as to speak. Of course it is entirely intuitive, until perhaps you stop to think about what actions you are taking, and then realise yeah that's countersteering all right. #) It's been a few years for me now and I only got a few ride days in after also completing Superbike Cornering School lessons, but I found the art of riding my (then) 600cc GSXR motorcycle on a high speed circuit (Phillip Island) extremely meditative - and exhilarating, especially after learning the function of the knee sliders to assist with controlling lean.

dahart 8y ago

> It's often claimed that _all_ steering on a bike requires countersteering, but that is false. Sounds like you've never ridden a motorcycle? It's obvious on a motorcycle that you counter-steer all the way through a turn. If you analyze bike steering more carefully, you will also find that you're always counter-steering. But the definition of counter-steering might be different than you think. You have to think about the front wheel's turn angle in relation to your turning radius. If you're riding in a right turn circle, then your wheel position will be turned right and not changing. In order to change that turning radius, you will always steer in the opposite direction of your desired direction relative to where your steering is at steady state. So counter steering doesn't mean that if you are turning right your wheel is left of center. Counter steering means that to turn more right, you need to steer left of where you were. When making small adjustments, your steer might be right of center at all times even though you go from a right turn to a sharper right turn. In other words, it's the delta of your steering angle that is always counter, not the position of your steering angle. Does that make sense? One easy way to understand why you're always counter-steering was given in the video: a bike is physically equivalent to an inverted pendulum. In order to move the pendulum in a given direction, you always have to move the base the other way, at all times. This is true on a bike too.

JKCalhoun 8y ago
> Sounds like you've never ridden a motorcycle? It's obvious on a motorcycle that you counter-steer all the way through a turn. Once the turn has been initiated and you are in the turn, I don't believe you continue to counter-steer. I think instead that once in a turn you feel a force trying to continue the front wheel deeper into the turn and you must maintain a counter force to prevent that. It seems unlikely that the front wheel is actually angled out away from the turn.
- dahart 8y ago
  > Once the turn has been initiated and you are in the turn, I don't believe you continue to counter-steer. Sounds like you haven't ridden a motorcycle? In a hard right turn, you will need to keep constant pushing pressure on the right handle (steering left) in order to stay in the turn. And maybe you didn't follow the rest of my comment? Counter-steering doesn't mean your wheel is left of center during a right turn. It's referring to a change in turning radius. At all times. Yes, your wheel might be turned right during the stable lean angle of a right turn (or it might not) but "counter steering" is referring to when you change your turning radius. You always steer the opposite direction that you were steering before. If you're in a right turn and want to turn sharper, you steer the wheel left of wherever it is. If you're in a right turn and want to straighten out, you steer the wheel right of wherever it is. It doesn't matter where the wheel is, all that matters is which direction the change happens. If you're in a stable lean with a constant turning radius, then your steering isn't changing, so I guess perhaps technically you're not counter-steering, because you're not steering? This is more confusing than clarifying, and not always true anyway. It's better to realize that the "counter" in counter steering is referring to the derivative, not the absolute value. It's referring to the change in steering, not the angle the wheel is turned. > It seems unlikely that the front wheel is actually angled out away from the turn. You might want to google gp moto pictures before making claims, you can find tons of images of racers in the middle of the turn with the wheel angled outward. For example: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dtCD63fKw58/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dtCD63fKw58/maxresdefault.jpg

NLips 8y ago

I've introduced confusion here by talking about leaning left. I should have said 'shift your weight such that the bike leans left'. See my other comment for a fuller explanation.