4 ms·

Sigh. Step 1: Write a (proprietary) hybrid VM merging Hotspot and JRockit with lots of difficult-to-implement, succulent features. Step 2: Modify the JDK 7 sp

by lukev 16y ago

Sigh. Step 1: Write a (proprietary) hybrid VM merging Hotspot and JRockit with lots of difficult-to-implement, succulent features. Step 2: Modify the JDK 7 spec to include these features. Step 3: Wag tail as OpenJDK slips into obsolescence.

rbanffy 16y ago
> Wag tail as OpenJDK slips into obsolescence. We can simply remove all references to Oracle trademarks from the OpenJDK and continue with it. It may be unable to run software that targets Oracle's evil VM, but it will happily run whatever is built for it. It's a shame, but it could work.
- lukev 16y ago
  Yes, but one of the JVMs selling points is that it's attractive to both open-source hackers and heavyweight commercial users. If you fork it, then you're in essence splitting these user bases, to the great detriment of both.
  - cageface 16y ago
    Exactly. The great thing about Clojure or Scala compared to other funlangs is that I can walk into just about any big "enterprise" shop and plug transparently into their codebase and toolchain. This is a crucial adoption vector for FP and the struggles other funlangs have gone through to bootstrap themselves underlines this.
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      > I can walk into just about any big "enterprise" shop and plug transparently into their codebase and toolchain What is the oldest JVM Clojure can run on? Many "big enterprises" run technology that's years behind the latest and greatest. And I have been waiting for 1.7 since the time I actually wrote Java code.
  - lmz 16y ago
    What does (did?) OpenJDK give the open-source hackers anyway? A freely distributable Java to go along with your Linux distribution? I doubt the JIT part is accessible to many developers - and those who want to adapt the JIT (= mobile hardware vendors, at this stage) could always strike a licensing deal with Oracle. There are already plenty of interpreted VM implementations, so it's not the general lack of a VM either. Sun's JVM was always freely available and downloadable, even though it sometimes contains Yahoo Toolbar.
    - lukev 16y ago
      But that's just the problem... If Oracle makes the "standard" JVM entirely proprietary, then they are under no obligation to provide it for free. I'm sure they'll always provide a free version for desktop users, in the interests of having a wide install base. But given the pricing schemes for other Oracle products, I fully expect you'd start seeing things like per-CPU licensing for enterprises, and developer licences for the JDK. Unless something happens, I'd be VERY surprised if the "standard" JVM is still "free to use", let alone open source, in 5 years.
      - lmz 16y ago
        That might be possible (free desktop edition, limited to 2 cores and 8GB RAM?), but I can't honestly blame Oracle for wanting to make money out of Java. Sun had the COBOL of the 21st century and still failed to make much money out of it. Oracle isn't going to make the same mistake.
        rbanffy 16y ago
        > Oracle isn't going to make the same mistake. And will probably kill Java in the process.
        crpatino 16y ago
        they are probably going to kill Java... in a market segment where it has been chronically ill for years. Java Enterprise is alive and healthy, thank you very much. No reason to believe that it will not continue to do pretty good for the next decade at least.
cageface 16y ago
It's really a shame that Java has fallen under the shadow of Oracle just as alternative JVM languages were starting to get really good.
- points 16y ago
  You're right. Very soon, all those JVMs that are installed and working perfectly well everywhere, will suddenly stop working!
- lukev 16y ago
  Agreed. Of course, people were content with Java because it was open source... could this divert mindshare into a truly open source system? LLVM or Parrot, perhaps? Here's to hoping it happens in a constructive way rather than becoming so fragmented it's no good.
  - cageface 16y ago
    A lot of the value of the JVM comes from the libraries and tooling that have grown around it over the years. Replacing both the JVM and all that support code is going to be a hell of a lot of work. I hate to say it but a lot seems to depend on the ability of Oracle to make the smart move here.

by lukev 16y ago

rbanffy 16y ago

> Wag tail as OpenJDK slips into obsolescence. We can simply remove all references to Oracle trademarks from the OpenJDK and continue with it. It may be unable to run software that targets Oracle's evil VM, but it will happily run whatever is built for it. It's a shame, but it could work.

lukev 16y ago
Yes, but one of the JVMs selling points is that it's attractive to both open-source hackers and heavyweight commercial users. If you fork it, then you're in essence splitting these user bases, to the great detriment of both.
- cageface 16y ago
  Exactly. The great thing about Clojure or Scala compared to other funlangs is that I can walk into just about any big "enterprise" shop and plug transparently into their codebase and toolchain. This is a crucial adoption vector for FP and the struggles other funlangs have gone through to bootstrap themselves underlines this.
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    > I can walk into just about any big "enterprise" shop and plug transparently into their codebase and toolchain What is the oldest JVM Clojure can run on? Many "big enterprises" run technology that's years behind the latest and greatest. And I have been waiting for 1.7 since the time I actually wrote Java code.
- lmz 16y ago
  What does (did?) OpenJDK give the open-source hackers anyway? A freely distributable Java to go along with your Linux distribution? I doubt the JIT part is accessible to many developers - and those who want to adapt the JIT (= mobile hardware vendors, at this stage) could always strike a licensing deal with Oracle. There are already plenty of interpreted VM implementations, so it's not the general lack of a VM either. Sun's JVM was always freely available and downloadable, even though it sometimes contains Yahoo Toolbar.
  - lukev 16y ago
    But that's just the problem... If Oracle makes the "standard" JVM entirely proprietary, then they are under no obligation to provide it for free. I'm sure they'll always provide a free version for desktop users, in the interests of having a wide install base. But given the pricing schemes for other Oracle products, I fully expect you'd start seeing things like per-CPU licensing for enterprises, and developer licences for the JDK. Unless something happens, I'd be VERY surprised if the "standard" JVM is still "free to use", let alone open source, in 5 years.
    - lmz 16y ago
      That might be possible (free desktop edition, limited to 2 cores and 8GB RAM?), but I can't honestly blame Oracle for wanting to make money out of Java. Sun had the COBOL of the 21st century and still failed to make much money out of it. Oracle isn't going to make the same mistake.
      - rbanffy 16y ago
        > Oracle isn't going to make the same mistake. And will probably kill Java in the process.
        crpatino 16y ago
        they are probably going to kill Java... in a market segment where it has been chronically ill for years. Java Enterprise is alive and healthy, thank you very much. No reason to believe that it will not continue to do pretty good for the next decade at least.

cageface 16y ago

It's really a shame that Java has fallen under the shadow of Oracle just as alternative JVM languages were starting to get really good.

points 16y ago
You're right. Very soon, all those JVMs that are installed and working perfectly well everywhere, will suddenly stop working!
lukev 16y ago
Agreed. Of course, people were content with Java because it was open source... could this divert mindshare into a truly open source system? LLVM or Parrot, perhaps? Here's to hoping it happens in a constructive way rather than becoming so fragmented it's no good.
- cageface 16y ago
  A lot of the value of the JVM comes from the libraries and tooling that have grown around it over the years. Replacing both the JVM and all that support code is going to be a hell of a lot of work. I hate to say it but a lot seems to depend on the ability of Oracle to make the smart move here.