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Thanks! Out of curiosity — if I built an application with truffleruby, could I distribute it as a JAR (provided that it was run under JDK 9)? Are there ways to

by leoh 9y ago

Thanks! Out of curiosity — if I built an application with truffleruby, could I distribute it as a JAR (provided that it was run under JDK 9)? Are there ways to call out to Java like JRuby? Having some difficulty finding documentation around this.

chrisseaton 9y ago
> if I built an application with truffleruby, could I distribute it as a JAR Yes there is a Java embedding API. http://www.graalvm.org/docs/graalvm-as-a-platform/embed/ http://www.graalvm.org/docs/graalvm-as-a-platform/embed/ > (provided that it was run under JDK 9) It can run on 8. It'll be fast on JDK 9 or 10 because these have the interface to use Graal. > Are there ways to call out to Java like JRuby? JRuby compatible interop: https://github.com/oracle/truffleruby/blob/master/doc/user/jruby-java-interop.md https://github.com/oracle/truffleruby/blob/master/doc/user/j... Our own interop: https://github.com/oracle/truffleruby/blob/master/doc/user/polyglot.md https://github.com/oracle/truffleruby/blob/master/doc/user/p... > Having some difficulty finding documentation around this. https://github.com/oracle/truffleruby/tree/master/doc https://github.com/oracle/truffleruby/tree/master/doc
- aardvark179 9y ago
  Be warned, the jruby compatible interop isn’t complete, and I don’t have the jruby test suite running for it because that requires a much more complete implementation to run at all. It’s good for quite a lot though.
- sandGorgon 9y ago
  Actually, can you create a Graal/Truffleruby 101 example where a Ruby application is compiled to native and run ?
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    It doesn't do that - we compile the Ruby interpreter to native, not the Ruby application. It's a little bit more complex than that in that we can run a Ruby application ahead of time up to a certain point where we compile it, and then when you run the application that state when it was compiled is restored. So we load the core library during compilation for example.
    - sandGorgon 9y ago
      Genuinely interested in knowing this - if you can compile ruby , why cant you compile a program? Will this be the case for truffle python, js,etc ?
      - peoplewindow 9y ago
        I'm not on the Graal team but I can take a crack at an answer - it's because as languages get more dynamic, static ahead of time compilation becomes less and less effective and can even be counterproductive. To compile a Ruby program it really needs to be just-in-time compiled, or at least a partial ahead of time compile using injected profiling runs. The problem is that the semantics of Ruby are such that you can't compile it efficiently out of the box. TruffleRuby can but only by making tons of assumptions at runtime that might not be valid. So it compiles code on the assumption your program is normal and not weird, and if those assumptions are violated, it goes back to interpreting the source code. Therefore even if you could pre-compile Ruby in some pedantic sense, you'd still need the source code to fall back to when the JITC has to bail out.
        miguro 9y ago
        That's partly true, but depends on the particular program. There are Ruby programs that could be compiled ahead-of-time quite efficiently, despite their dynamic features. The slow-path version of the code that violates runtime assumptions can still be compiled as an alternative variant - so instead of switching from fast compiled code to the interpreter, the code violating the assumptions can switch to slow-path compiled code.
        vidarh 9y ago
        While that's true, and switching to a slower path solves many problems, consider this common Ruby pattern: Dir.glob("some dir/*").each do |filename| require filename end A lot of Ruby code messes with how code is loaded (heck, "require" in almost every Ruby install is not the built in "require" but one that has been dynamically replaced). Sometimes that is intended to implement static behavior: The expectation is that the code remains the same. It's just a way of avoiding having to maintain a list manually. But other times it is used as a plugin mechanism, where the expectation is for the code to be provided by a user or other developer, and processing this statically at compile time would remove capabilities that the user would expect. You can't automatically determine things like that, because it is down to developer intent and the code does not document the intent. So the problem goes deeper than being about being able to revert to a slow path: To compile Ruby in a meaningful way you need to make some level of trade-off in what aspects of Ruby you decide to treat as "ahead of time" vs runtime, because there is no clear rule that says "now the program has been loaded; everything after this is runtime".
grashalm 9y ago
Yes you will be. But we use a different interface. Checkout this guide: http://www.graalvm.org/docs/reference-manual/polyglot/ http://www.graalvm.org/docs/reference-manual/polyglot/ Select your start and your target language and it will show you an example. Its a very basic example, but it basically works with all Java types. We will provide better docs soon.
- aardvark179 9y ago
  We do have a partial implementation of the jruby API, though I don’t believe it works on substratevm due to reflection.

by leoh 9y ago

chrisseaton 9y ago

> if I built an application with truffleruby, could I distribute it as a JAR Yes there is a Java embedding API. http://www.graalvm.org/docs/graalvm-as-a-platform/embed/ http://www.graalvm.org/docs/graalvm-as-a-platform/embed/ > (provided that it was run under JDK 9) It can run on 8. It'll be fast on JDK 9 or 10 because these have the interface to use Graal. > Are there ways to call out to Java like JRuby? JRuby compatible interop: https://github.com/oracle/truffleruby/blob/master/doc/user/jruby-java-interop.md https://github.com/oracle/truffleruby/blob/master/doc/user/j... Our own interop: https://github.com/oracle/truffleruby/blob/master/doc/user/polyglot.md https://github.com/oracle/truffleruby/blob/master/doc/user/p... > Having some difficulty finding documentation around this. https://github.com/oracle/truffleruby/tree/master/doc https://github.com/oracle/truffleruby/tree/master/doc

aardvark179 9y ago
Be warned, the jruby compatible interop isn’t complete, and I don’t have the jruby test suite running for it because that requires a much more complete implementation to run at all. It’s good for quite a lot though.
sandGorgon 9y ago
Actually, can you create a Graal/Truffleruby 101 example where a Ruby application is compiled to native and run ?
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  It doesn't do that - we compile the Ruby interpreter to native, not the Ruby application. It's a little bit more complex than that in that we can run a Ruby application ahead of time up to a certain point where we compile it, and then when you run the application that state when it was compiled is restored. So we load the core library during compilation for example.
  - sandGorgon 9y ago
    Genuinely interested in knowing this - if you can compile ruby , why cant you compile a program? Will this be the case for truffle python, js,etc ?
    - peoplewindow 9y ago
      I'm not on the Graal team but I can take a crack at an answer - it's because as languages get more dynamic, static ahead of time compilation becomes less and less effective and can even be counterproductive. To compile a Ruby program it really needs to be just-in-time compiled, or at least a partial ahead of time compile using injected profiling runs. The problem is that the semantics of Ruby are such that you can't compile it efficiently out of the box. TruffleRuby can but only by making tons of assumptions at runtime that might not be valid. So it compiles code on the assumption your program is normal and not weird, and if those assumptions are violated, it goes back to interpreting the source code. Therefore even if you could pre-compile Ruby in some pedantic sense, you'd still need the source code to fall back to when the JITC has to bail out.
      - miguro 9y ago
        That's partly true, but depends on the particular program. There are Ruby programs that could be compiled ahead-of-time quite efficiently, despite their dynamic features. The slow-path version of the code that violates runtime assumptions can still be compiled as an alternative variant - so instead of switching from fast compiled code to the interpreter, the code violating the assumptions can switch to slow-path compiled code.
        vidarh 9y ago
        While that's true, and switching to a slower path solves many problems, consider this common Ruby pattern: Dir.glob("some dir/*").each do |filename| require filename end A lot of Ruby code messes with how code is loaded (heck, "require" in almost every Ruby install is not the built in "require" but one that has been dynamically replaced). Sometimes that is intended to implement static behavior: The expectation is that the code remains the same. It's just a way of avoiding having to maintain a list manually. But other times it is used as a plugin mechanism, where the expectation is for the code to be provided by a user or other developer, and processing this statically at compile time would remove capabilities that the user would expect. You can't automatically determine things like that, because it is down to developer intent and the code does not document the intent. So the problem goes deeper than being about being able to revert to a slow path: To compile Ruby in a meaningful way you need to make some level of trade-off in what aspects of Ruby you decide to treat as "ahead of time" vs runtime, because there is no clear rule that says "now the program has been loaded; everything after this is runtime".

grashalm 9y ago

Yes you will be. But we use a different interface. Checkout this guide: http://www.graalvm.org/docs/reference-manual/polyglot/ http://www.graalvm.org/docs/reference-manual/polyglot/ Select your start and your target language and it will show you an example. Its a very basic example, but it basically works with all Java types. We will provide better docs soon.

aardvark179 9y ago
We do have a partial implementation of the jruby API, though I don’t believe it works on substratevm due to reflection.