5 ms·

Oracle set to merge Java virtual machines

43 points by joubert 16y ago

kokoloko 16y ago
Where does this put OpenJDK? I doubt Oracle is thinking of open sourcing JRockit parts...
- _grrr 16y ago
  What was the relationship between OpenJDK and HotSpot ?
  - ominous_prime 16y ago
    OpenJDK contains the HotSpot JVM http://openjdk.java.net/groups/hotspot/ http://openjdk.java.net/groups/hotspot/
  - flatulent1 16y ago
    And how does this relate to VirtualBox (open-source)?
- yock 16y ago
  Considering Oracle's two recent actions against open source projects, I'd suspect this is yet another move to minimize the amount of open source software under its control.
  - hyperbovine 16y ago
    Erm... maximize?
    - mbreese 16y ago
      More like remove... it seems like they are trying to shed away the open source parts of projects where they think they can still extract a profit. I don't think Oracle wants to shepherd any major open source projects and the investment that entails. They would rather move Solaris and Java back to the realm of closed-source and proprietary. Hopefully in the case of Java, still keeping it close to free as in beer. They know that the open source community won't be able to seriously fork Java/OpenJDK. Even with newer JVM languages, Java's place has been cemented in enterprise environments. And if it is one thing Oracle knows, it is how to sell to the enterprise. I'm not sure that I would do much differently if I were them either. Open source just doesn't seem to be in their DNA, and it's been quite successful for them. Even if it is to the detriment of others...
kolektiv 16y ago
"It's not an easy problem taking the best of each, figuring out what the long-term convergence plan is." That's an understatement. The complexity of merging two fairly distinct VMs while trying to maintain feature parity with both separate previous versions, and taking the best features of both? Eighteen months seems optimistic. I also hope they have some incredibly good way of producing a combined test suite, because this seems like the most promising way of introducing myriad subtle bugs I can imagine.
- wheaties 16y ago
  I doubt it was the developers who are responsible for the merging who came up with an 18 month estimate. Invariably it's not going to happen on time or if the 18 month milestone is hit, it'll stay alpha for quite some time. JDK7 + merging of 2 distinct VMs? Sheesh...
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    Oracle certainly has money to throw at the problem. The question whether the problem is one that can be solved by throwing lots of money at it will be answered in 18 months.
    - joubert 16y ago
      Throwing money at it probably won't solve it.
      - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
        ... especially considering that quite a few of Sun's star engineers have already left.
      - rbanffy 16y ago
        That's my bet too. And I am quite happy with it. If Oracle completely botches their proprietary, poisonous implementation, OpenJDK may gain some popularity. The biggest risk is giving .NET a more easy market.
c00p3r 16y ago
Just a blah-blah-blah.
lukev 16y ago
Sigh. Step 1: Write a (proprietary) hybrid VM merging Hotspot and JRockit with lots of difficult-to-implement, succulent features. Step 2: Modify the JDK 7 spec to include these features. Step 3: Wag tail as OpenJDK slips into obsolescence.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  > Wag tail as OpenJDK slips into obsolescence. We can simply remove all references to Oracle trademarks from the OpenJDK and continue with it. It may be unable to run software that targets Oracle's evil VM, but it will happily run whatever is built for it. It's a shame, but it could work.
  - lukev 16y ago
    Yes, but one of the JVMs selling points is that it's attractive to both open-source hackers and heavyweight commercial users. If you fork it, then you're in essence splitting these user bases, to the great detriment of both.
    - cageface 16y ago
      Exactly. The great thing about Clojure or Scala compared to other funlangs is that I can walk into just about any big "enterprise" shop and plug transparently into their codebase and toolchain. This is a crucial adoption vector for FP and the struggles other funlangs have gone through to bootstrap themselves underlines this.
      - rbanffy 16y ago
        > I can walk into just about any big "enterprise" shop and plug transparently into their codebase and toolchain What is the oldest JVM Clojure can run on? Many "big enterprises" run technology that's years behind the latest and greatest. And I have been waiting for 1.7 since the time I actually wrote Java code.
    - lmz 16y ago
      What does (did?) OpenJDK give the open-source hackers anyway? A freely distributable Java to go along with your Linux distribution? I doubt the JIT part is accessible to many developers - and those who want to adapt the JIT (= mobile hardware vendors, at this stage) could always strike a licensing deal with Oracle. There are already plenty of interpreted VM implementations, so it's not the general lack of a VM either. Sun's JVM was always freely available and downloadable, even though it sometimes contains Yahoo Toolbar.
tamersalama 16y ago
Anyone knows how this would affect JRuby?
- joubert 16y ago
  Or any of the other JVM-based languages such as Scala, Groovy, Clojure...?
  - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
    It may become impossible to get the newest JVM under an open-source license, which would mean that they wouldn't benefit (much) from Sun/Oracle's future development efforts.
- points 16y ago
  It will stop working. JRuby will not execute any more. It just throws an error.
- lukev 16y ago
  It should at least run it, unless they break bytecode backwards-compatibility, which would be moronic. However, this would open the door for them to do evil things like, for example, charging money for the JDK.
ouhjygj 16y ago
So what would happen if a large company in Redmond hired/contracted a bunch of ex-Sun engineers to make a java->.Net compiler so all this stuff ran on the CLR As Oracle makes it harder and harder to use the JVM people are forced into the waiting arms of MSFT
- jjs_ 16y ago
  http://www.ikvm.net/ http://www.ikvm.net/ ??
  - jim_dot 16y ago
    It's VMs all the way down!
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - michaelneale 16y ago
    I am surprised how well it runs considering it is a VM in a VM.
- trurl 16y ago
  You mean like http://www.ikvm.net/ http://www.ikvm.net/
BonoboBoner 16y ago
I present you teh plan: (Hotspot+JRockit)-Zombie = Enterprise JDK with paywall OpenJDK = Free JDK without the fun/fast/secure/... stuff

43 points by joubert 16y ago

kokoloko 16y ago

Where does this put OpenJDK? I doubt Oracle is thinking of open sourcing JRockit parts...

_grrr 16y ago
What was the relationship between OpenJDK and HotSpot ?
- ominous_prime 16y ago
  OpenJDK contains the HotSpot JVM http://openjdk.java.net/groups/hotspot/ http://openjdk.java.net/groups/hotspot/
- flatulent1 16y ago
  And how does this relate to VirtualBox (open-source)?
yock 16y ago
Considering Oracle's two recent actions against open source projects, I'd suspect this is yet another move to minimize the amount of open source software under its control.
- hyperbovine 16y ago
  Erm... maximize?
  - mbreese 16y ago
    More like remove... it seems like they are trying to shed away the open source parts of projects where they think they can still extract a profit. I don't think Oracle wants to shepherd any major open source projects and the investment that entails. They would rather move Solaris and Java back to the realm of closed-source and proprietary. Hopefully in the case of Java, still keeping it close to free as in beer. They know that the open source community won't be able to seriously fork Java/OpenJDK. Even with newer JVM languages, Java's place has been cemented in enterprise environments. And if it is one thing Oracle knows, it is how to sell to the enterprise. I'm not sure that I would do much differently if I were them either. Open source just doesn't seem to be in their DNA, and it's been quite successful for them. Even if it is to the detriment of others...

kolektiv 16y ago

"It's not an easy problem taking the best of each, figuring out what the long-term convergence plan is." That's an understatement. The complexity of merging two fairly distinct VMs while trying to maintain feature parity with both separate previous versions, and taking the best features of both? Eighteen months seems optimistic. I also hope they have some incredibly good way of producing a combined test suite, because this seems like the most promising way of introducing myriad subtle bugs I can imagine.

wheaties 16y ago
I doubt it was the developers who are responsible for the merging who came up with an 18 month estimate. Invariably it's not going to happen on time or if the 18 month milestone is hit, it'll stay alpha for quite some time. JDK7 + merging of 2 distinct VMs? Sheesh...
- rbanffy 16y ago
  Oracle certainly has money to throw at the problem. The question whether the problem is one that can be solved by throwing lots of money at it will be answered in 18 months.
  - joubert 16y ago
    Throwing money at it probably won't solve it.
    - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
      ... especially considering that quite a few of Sun's star engineers have already left.
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      That's my bet too. And I am quite happy with it. If Oracle completely botches their proprietary, poisonous implementation, OpenJDK may gain some popularity. The biggest risk is giving .NET a more easy market.

c00p3r 16y ago

Just a blah-blah-blah.

lukev 16y ago

Sigh. Step 1: Write a (proprietary) hybrid VM merging Hotspot and JRockit with lots of difficult-to-implement, succulent features. Step 2: Modify the JDK 7 spec to include these features. Step 3: Wag tail as OpenJDK slips into obsolescence.

rbanffy 16y ago
> Wag tail as OpenJDK slips into obsolescence. We can simply remove all references to Oracle trademarks from the OpenJDK and continue with it. It may be unable to run software that targets Oracle's evil VM, but it will happily run whatever is built for it. It's a shame, but it could work.
- lukev 16y ago
  Yes, but one of the JVMs selling points is that it's attractive to both open-source hackers and heavyweight commercial users. If you fork it, then you're in essence splitting these user bases, to the great detriment of both.
  - cageface 16y ago
    Exactly. The great thing about Clojure or Scala compared to other funlangs is that I can walk into just about any big "enterprise" shop and plug transparently into their codebase and toolchain. This is a crucial adoption vector for FP and the struggles other funlangs have gone through to bootstrap themselves underlines this.
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      > I can walk into just about any big "enterprise" shop and plug transparently into their codebase and toolchain What is the oldest JVM Clojure can run on? Many "big enterprises" run technology that's years behind the latest and greatest. And I have been waiting for 1.7 since the time I actually wrote Java code.
  - lmz 16y ago
    What does (did?) OpenJDK give the open-source hackers anyway? A freely distributable Java to go along with your Linux distribution? I doubt the JIT part is accessible to many developers - and those who want to adapt the JIT (= mobile hardware vendors, at this stage) could always strike a licensing deal with Oracle. There are already plenty of interpreted VM implementations, so it's not the general lack of a VM either. Sun's JVM was always freely available and downloadable, even though it sometimes contains Yahoo Toolbar.

tamersalama 16y ago

Anyone knows how this would affect JRuby?

joubert 16y ago
Or any of the other JVM-based languages such as Scala, Groovy, Clojure...?
- JoachimSchipper 16y ago
  It may become impossible to get the newest JVM under an open-source license, which would mean that they wouldn't benefit (much) from Sun/Oracle's future development efforts.
points 16y ago
It will stop working. JRuby will not execute any more. It just throws an error.
lukev 16y ago
It should at least run it, unless they break bytecode backwards-compatibility, which would be moronic. However, this would open the door for them to do evil things like, for example, charging money for the JDK.

ouhjygj 16y ago

So what would happen if a large company in Redmond hired/contracted a bunch of ex-Sun engineers to make a java->.Net compiler so all this stuff ran on the CLR As Oracle makes it harder and harder to use the JVM people are forced into the waiting arms of MSFT

jjs_ 16y ago
http://www.ikvm.net/ http://www.ikvm.net/ ??
- jim_dot 16y ago
  It's VMs all the way down!
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- michaelneale 16y ago
  I am surprised how well it runs considering it is a VM in a VM.
trurl 16y ago
You mean like http://www.ikvm.net/ http://www.ikvm.net/

BonoboBoner 16y ago

I present you teh plan: (Hotspot+JRockit)-Zombie = Enterprise JDK with paywall OpenJDK = Free JDK without the fun/fast/secure/... stuff