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Yes but the point is that what is 'misbehaving' is defined by market norms. 'Misbehaving' is engaging in behavior which decreases profit but it can never help u

Yes but the point is that what is 'misbehaving' is defined by market norms. 'Misbehaving' is engaging in behavior which decreases profit but it can never help us to escape the question of profit altogether. That's what government is for - when what is good for society and what is good for profit conflict government steps in to correct. The point of markets is that they rely on only individual decisions and what may seem like a rational individual decision to every member of society may lead to an overall outcome that no member of society supports. In those instances we have democratic government to allow us to reach out of the realm of individual and act in a collective self-interest. That in recent years our government has been malfunctioning in a way that suppresses our ability to act this way is not an argument to get rid of democratic governance altogether, it's an argument to bring it back and strengthen it.

nickpp 9y ago
A well functioning government, does, ideally, what you describe. But most governments in the world (maybe except a few western ones) are, as I was saying, incredibly disfunctional. And when governments misbehave, they kill: wars, corruption, suppression, etc. Forgive me if I’ll prefer businesses over governments every day.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > And when governments misbehave, they kill: wars, corruption, suppression, etc. You're comparing a giant to a nest of angry ants. The giant sometimes tramples houses; the ants don't. One might conclude the ants are therefore gentler, and wonder much better life would be under giant ants instead of the giant, neglecting that if the ants had the giant's power, they would be far more deadly than it.
  - wonder_er 9y ago
    absolutely agree. I'd still rather live with angry (but benign) ants than a giant. The ants cannot get the giants power, no matter how hard they try, so I'm comfortable with the ants. (The thought experiment - what happens if Facebook tries to arrest someone? I'd be _so_ curious to watch the proceedings.)
  - stale2002 9y ago
    Absolutely. Which is why we need to get rid of that power in the first place. The problem is not the entity, it is the power, no matter who holds it.
- laughingman2 9y ago
  Even if the power of individual vote seems very small, It can be used to instigate change. One can argue that in order to increase the power of people, one has to reduce the power of corporation lobbying etc. Corporations are vast entities of unaccountable power when they are unregulated by a government. Chomsky's criticism of corporations holds good, and is becoming prophetic in all accounts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYxGkFxb7f4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYxGkFxb7f4
  - nickpp 9y ago
    Just recent elections show "the power of the individual vote" used to support things like Brexit in UK, Orban in Hungary, Xi in China, Putin in Russia, Maduro in Venezuela or, why not, Trump. While the evil corporations give us, what, surveillance?! We've never lived under corporations, but we’d always fear them. I for one, fear more the evil I know and I see ruining our world: politicians and their instruments of power, governments.
    - darpa_escapee 9y ago
      > While the evil corporations give us, what, surveillance?! They've given us genocide, environmental destruction, the company town, the risk of being killed for striking, financial collapse, the funding of drug lords and terrorism[1]. [1] https://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1616991,00.html https://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1616991,0...
      - nickpp 9y ago
        All those given to us also by governments but a thousand times worse, along with wars, dictators, mass genocides, race purges, and so on and so forth. I look around me and every single object I use and makes my life better was made by a corporation. From my PC to my phone to my house and my card. While every single thing that makes me fear tomorrow and sucks in my life is controlled by governments: health care, roads, bureaucrats, borders, international conflicts, corruption, etc. I don't fear Facebook knowing everything about me and selling that info to third parties, but I do fear my government buying that info from FB and using it restrict my freedoms in the name of my own good or simply to steal more money from me.

nickpp 9y ago

A well functioning government, does, ideally, what you describe. But most governments in the world (maybe except a few western ones) are, as I was saying, incredibly disfunctional. And when governments misbehave, they kill: wars, corruption, suppression, etc. Forgive me if I’ll prefer businesses over governments every day.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> And when governments misbehave, they kill: wars, corruption, suppression, etc. You're comparing a giant to a nest of angry ants. The giant sometimes tramples houses; the ants don't. One might conclude the ants are therefore gentler, and wonder much better life would be under giant ants instead of the giant, neglecting that if the ants had the giant's power, they would be far more deadly than it.
- wonder_er 9y ago
  absolutely agree. I'd still rather live with angry (but benign) ants than a giant. The ants cannot get the giants power, no matter how hard they try, so I'm comfortable with the ants. (The thought experiment - what happens if Facebook tries to arrest someone? I'd be _so_ curious to watch the proceedings.)
- stale2002 9y ago
  Absolutely. Which is why we need to get rid of that power in the first place. The problem is not the entity, it is the power, no matter who holds it.
laughingman2 9y ago
Even if the power of individual vote seems very small, It can be used to instigate change. One can argue that in order to increase the power of people, one has to reduce the power of corporation lobbying etc. Corporations are vast entities of unaccountable power when they are unregulated by a government. Chomsky's criticism of corporations holds good, and is becoming prophetic in all accounts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYxGkFxb7f4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYxGkFxb7f4
- nickpp 9y ago
  Just recent elections show "the power of the individual vote" used to support things like Brexit in UK, Orban in Hungary, Xi in China, Putin in Russia, Maduro in Venezuela or, why not, Trump. While the evil corporations give us, what, surveillance?! We've never lived under corporations, but we’d always fear them. I for one, fear more the evil I know and I see ruining our world: politicians and their instruments of power, governments.
  - darpa_escapee 9y ago
    > While the evil corporations give us, what, surveillance?! They've given us genocide, environmental destruction, the company town, the risk of being killed for striking, financial collapse, the funding of drug lords and terrorism[1]. [1] https://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1616991,00.html https://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1616991,0...
    - nickpp 9y ago
      All those given to us also by governments but a thousand times worse, along with wars, dictators, mass genocides, race purges, and so on and so forth. I look around me and every single object I use and makes my life better was made by a corporation. From my PC to my phone to my house and my card. While every single thing that makes me fear tomorrow and sucks in my life is controlled by governments: health care, roads, bureaucrats, borders, international conflicts, corruption, etc. I don't fear Facebook knowing everything about me and selling that info to third parties, but I do fear my government buying that info from FB and using it restrict my freedoms in the name of my own good or simply to steal more money from me.