6 ms·

Under military rule, Venezuela oil workers quit in a stampede

28 points by kimsk112 9y ago

Aloha 9y ago
I've been waiting for a revolution there for a long time. I dont know when or if it will come.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  I fear that it will only come when at least half of the military is ready to side with the people against the regime. I don't think the people there can take on the military if the military is willing to fight back.
  - the_trapper 9y ago
    This is another example of gun control working as intended by an oppressive regime.
- cf498 9y ago
  The thing is, in Venezuela a lot of people still have a lot to loose. Their economy tanked, the question at this point is how the available resources are going to be distributed. The existing corrupt structures are still a safer bet for large groups of the population and they cant have to high hopes for the viable alternatives. If the old regime is overthrown, it will likely not be more equal. I would be highly surprised if it wouldnt come to a famine then without major NGOs stepping in. I hope I have the wrong impression though. The situation is simply terrible.
  - eip 9y ago
    > I would be highly surprised if it wouldnt come to a famine It already is. People aren't eating zoo animals for fun. They are eating them because they are hungry. Which, in a country as green and lush as Venezuela, makes me wonder if the population is mildly retarded. You probably don't even have to try to grow food there. Just throw seeds on the ground.
    - cf498 9y ago
      As dark as it is, there is a difference between malnourished and a famine. With "a lot to loose", in a lot of cases its those peoples lives. Alot of them are malnourished now, but they stay to loose the little that is available. My point being, there isnt a simple way out. There is no get rid of the president and everything will be fine. It will likely be worse of, even if just for a short while for a lot of people if major NGOs dont step in.
    - wmil 9y ago
      Chavez was charismatic but not very bright. Maduro is his former drinking buddy who isn't charismatic or bright. Basically most of the farms shut down because the government mandated food prices below the cost of production. Food was imported by the government instead. Then the government ran out of money, and Venezuela doesn't have food or farms. If farmers had held out through the hard times Maduro would have just nationalized their farms to try to fix the food problem. So quitting was really their only option.
      - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
        I believe all that was rooted in the original breaking-up of farms? Large farming corporations were divided and given to workers in small parcels. But they had not the financing, equipment nor training to run their own operation. Also, they were now 'wealthy landowners' and probably not too motivated. Anyway, fast forward and nobody is producing food, or at an uncompetitive cost. As noted, the food imports ruined the balance of trade, the falling oil prices ended their exports, and the country went bankrupt. Has any socialist country survived the death of their cash cow? These experiments seem to work in principle, but only as long as huge amounts of cash are injected from outside.
- firekvz 9y ago
  what do you mean by revolution? there has been 2 already. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2014_Venezuelan_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2014_Venezuela... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2017_Venezuelan_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2017_Venezuela... Theres nothing much we can do, guns vs stones. People realized is easier to leave the country than figthing this.
  - viggity 9y ago
    and this is why I am grateful we have the 2nd Amendment. Sure, you can't match a tank head to head, but the past 50 years of insurgencies show that you don't need to go head to head to still come out on top.
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      It should never get that far. It's much harder to abuse a population of which a subset can fight back. If you can't oppress the small groups you can't establish a baseline tolerance/acceptance of abuse. Without that it's much harder to build the corrupt house of cards that precedes a total collapse. It's not about armed revolt. It's about creating a set of circumstances that prevent the oppression that leads up to one. Other amendments on the bill of rights have similar effects. An abusive government needs to control the narrative and shortcuts to bypass due process at scale. The ability to do those comprehensively are severely handicapped by other amendments.
    - distances 9y ago
      Can you mention some insurrection where armed protestants won over a well-equipped state? Even in Syria the serious opposition was due to outside heavy armament supplies and looting of army materiel. For me this reasoning for the 2nd amendment comes out only as a power fantasy which, if it was to actually play out, would simply leave the country worse off (versus unviolent opposition that may need outside support to succeed over a longer term). Finally, even in the unlikely case that a revolution was successful, it would be unlikely to promote liberty but rather just install another autocratic ruling class [1]. [1] http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/104346397009003004 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1043463970090030...
anonymous5133 9y ago
Wonder if this will hurt production?
partycoder 9y ago
CGP Grey explains how dictators work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs When the collaboration of the citizens is not required to generate wealth, dictators emerge. For Venezuela, it's oil. We are also seeing how technology is generating enough wealth and power to allow tech companies to compete against society. Today, it's tracking people for advertising purposes, tomorrow it could be a mass surveillance at the scale of what is emerging in China.
- eloff 9y ago
  That's a big stretch to go from advertising related tracking to the great firewall of China.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    No. It's really not. The technical puzzle pieces are all there and well understood. Anyone who can amass the political power could get it done. Done fast or done slowly might require differing amounts of power.
    - eloff 9y ago
      Ad tracking technology is in no way related to wide spread blocking of internet content. Those are completely separate. To filter the internet you don't need to know the browsing or shopping habits of a single individual. I fail to see the connection at all.
      - ForRealsies 9y ago
        To monitor the internet, you do.
      - partycoder 9y ago
        You can effectively achieve something indifferent from censorship just by ranking, either search results, feed items or what have you.

28 points by kimsk112 9y ago

Aloha 9y ago

I've been waiting for a revolution there for a long time. I dont know when or if it will come.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago
I fear that it will only come when at least half of the military is ready to side with the people against the regime. I don't think the people there can take on the military if the military is willing to fight back.
- the_trapper 9y ago
  This is another example of gun control working as intended by an oppressive regime.
cf498 9y ago
The thing is, in Venezuela a lot of people still have a lot to loose. Their economy tanked, the question at this point is how the available resources are going to be distributed. The existing corrupt structures are still a safer bet for large groups of the population and they cant have to high hopes for the viable alternatives. If the old regime is overthrown, it will likely not be more equal. I would be highly surprised if it wouldnt come to a famine then without major NGOs stepping in. I hope I have the wrong impression though. The situation is simply terrible.
- eip 9y ago
  > I would be highly surprised if it wouldnt come to a famine It already is. People aren't eating zoo animals for fun. They are eating them because they are hungry. Which, in a country as green and lush as Venezuela, makes me wonder if the population is mildly retarded. You probably don't even have to try to grow food there. Just throw seeds on the ground.
  - cf498 9y ago
    As dark as it is, there is a difference between malnourished and a famine. With "a lot to loose", in a lot of cases its those peoples lives. Alot of them are malnourished now, but they stay to loose the little that is available. My point being, there isnt a simple way out. There is no get rid of the president and everything will be fine. It will likely be worse of, even if just for a short while for a lot of people if major NGOs dont step in.
  - wmil 9y ago
    Chavez was charismatic but not very bright. Maduro is his former drinking buddy who isn't charismatic or bright. Basically most of the farms shut down because the government mandated food prices below the cost of production. Food was imported by the government instead. Then the government ran out of money, and Venezuela doesn't have food or farms. If farmers had held out through the hard times Maduro would have just nationalized their farms to try to fix the food problem. So quitting was really their only option.
    - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
      I believe all that was rooted in the original breaking-up of farms? Large farming corporations were divided and given to workers in small parcels. But they had not the financing, equipment nor training to run their own operation. Also, they were now 'wealthy landowners' and probably not too motivated. Anyway, fast forward and nobody is producing food, or at an uncompetitive cost. As noted, the food imports ruined the balance of trade, the falling oil prices ended their exports, and the country went bankrupt. Has any socialist country survived the death of their cash cow? These experiments seem to work in principle, but only as long as huge amounts of cash are injected from outside.
firekvz 9y ago
what do you mean by revolution? there has been 2 already. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2014_Venezuelan_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2014_Venezuela... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2017_Venezuelan_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2017_Venezuela... Theres nothing much we can do, guns vs stones. People realized is easier to leave the country than figthing this.
- viggity 9y ago
  and this is why I am grateful we have the 2nd Amendment. Sure, you can't match a tank head to head, but the past 50 years of insurgencies show that you don't need to go head to head to still come out on top.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    It should never get that far. It's much harder to abuse a population of which a subset can fight back. If you can't oppress the small groups you can't establish a baseline tolerance/acceptance of abuse. Without that it's much harder to build the corrupt house of cards that precedes a total collapse. It's not about armed revolt. It's about creating a set of circumstances that prevent the oppression that leads up to one. Other amendments on the bill of rights have similar effects. An abusive government needs to control the narrative and shortcuts to bypass due process at scale. The ability to do those comprehensively are severely handicapped by other amendments.
  - distances 9y ago
    Can you mention some insurrection where armed protestants won over a well-equipped state? Even in Syria the serious opposition was due to outside heavy armament supplies and looting of army materiel. For me this reasoning for the 2nd amendment comes out only as a power fantasy which, if it was to actually play out, would simply leave the country worse off (versus unviolent opposition that may need outside support to succeed over a longer term). Finally, even in the unlikely case that a revolution was successful, it would be unlikely to promote liberty but rather just install another autocratic ruling class [1]. [1] http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/104346397009003004 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1043463970090030...

anonymous5133 9y ago

Wonder if this will hurt production?

partycoder 9y ago

CGP Grey explains how dictators work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs When the collaboration of the citizens is not required to generate wealth, dictators emerge. For Venezuela, it's oil. We are also seeing how technology is generating enough wealth and power to allow tech companies to compete against society. Today, it's tracking people for advertising purposes, tomorrow it could be a mass surveillance at the scale of what is emerging in China.

eloff 9y ago
That's a big stretch to go from advertising related tracking to the great firewall of China.
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  No. It's really not. The technical puzzle pieces are all there and well understood. Anyone who can amass the political power could get it done. Done fast or done slowly might require differing amounts of power.
  - eloff 9y ago
    Ad tracking technology is in no way related to wide spread blocking of internet content. Those are completely separate. To filter the internet you don't need to know the browsing or shopping habits of a single individual. I fail to see the connection at all.
    - ForRealsies 9y ago
      To monitor the internet, you do.
    - partycoder 9y ago
      You can effectively achieve something indifferent from censorship just by ranking, either search results, feed items or what have you.