7 ms·

I feel like early FB culture had quite a few of the signs of a cult. Like legit, almost religious, cult.

return1 9y ago
It wasn't just FB. the trend was "openness", let the world know everything you do. It was actively pushed by all the media who are today accusing FB of going to far. When facebook was doing everything in and out of the books to grow faster and faster (such as allowing zynga to force-invite your friends to their games) , they were all looking the other way, because they saw a massive source of traffic that they could control themselves (facebook was giving untapped access to likes/followers back then).
- TAForObvReasons 9y ago
  People sounded the alarm many years ago. EFF from 2009 "predicted" a CA-like event would happen as a direct result of FB policy changes: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/facebooks-new-privacy-changes-good-bad-and-ugly https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/facebooks-new-privacy-... Rest assured, not everyone in technology openly embraced the externality-disregarding "move fast and break things" ideology that took hold of SV in the last decade or so.
  - adamnemecek 9y ago
    > Rest assured, not everyone in technology openly embraced the externality-disregarding "move fast and break things" ideology that took hold of SV in the last decade or so. To be honest tho, like I can't blame them, I dont think they were aware of the consequences this might have.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      As bad as Trump is, as bad as the potential foreign propaganda affecting election outcomes is, I'm worried the solution will be worse than the problem. I suspect the two incumbent parties will use this as an opportunity to further cement the two-party system, making it more difficult for third parties or political "outsiders" to have successful campaigns. Russian spending on FB ads was a drop in the ocean compared to the total spend. Congress clearly doesn't care about our privacy as evidenced by the domestic spying programs. Without trying to go too far down the conspiracy rabbit hole, we need to figure out what their real motivation is here. My personal opinion is that they will make it harder for outsiders, including other political parties, to gain any traction.
      - adamnemecek 9y ago
        I share some of your concerns. However re Russian spending, I think that that the current spending estimates are on the lower end. Also the money was spent less wastefully so it might have ended up having larger effect than assumed.
        Consultant32452 9y ago
        >Also the money was spent less wastefully so it might have ended up having larger effect than assumed. My understanding is the opposite. First, money was spent on both sides. Yes, the majority was in favor of Trump but at least two anti-Trump rallies were allegedly started by Russians. Second, not all the money was spent in swing states. Third, at least according to one FB executive more than half was spent after the election. I'm not suggesting that Russian ads didn't affect the outcome, this was such a close election that even small things could have swayed it one way or the other. At the same time we don't need to exaggerate what really happened.
    - s73v3r_ 9y ago
      They might not have been aware, but to me, that just indicates that they didn't think about the consequences. Other people, who did, fairly accurately predicted that something like CA would happen.
sevensor 9y ago
Hardly unique to Facebook though. Isn't it a bit of a Valley cliché to be on a mission to change the world? To ask employees to believe in the company, not just to work there?
- seattle_spring 9y ago
  "But my startup is different!"
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  > To ask employees to believe in the company, not just to work there? To ask employees to ACT LIKE they believe in the company "My PhD in maths helped me increase click conversion rate by 1%!! #soexcited " ...and then your employees leave after 1 year.
  - Bartweiss 9y ago
    > ...and then your employees leave after 1 year. No kidding. I have trouble accepting the "Valley are a cult!" rhetoric, because we're talking about faiths where all the acolytes advocate changing cults every 18 months to progress faster. (Although now that I say it, that could be a great RPG or something - like Paranoia with a Lovecraft setting. Hmm...)
throwaway84742 9y ago
Not just “early”. If you talk to FB employees they do really seem to believe they’re “changing the world”, and that their product is a gift to mankind rather than an abomination.
- bertil 9y ago
  What makes you think that Facebook is an abomination?
  - craftyguy 9y ago
    What makes you think it is a gift to mankind?
    - bertil 9y ago
      It allows me to keep in contact with many of my close friends and my family who live on three continent and more countries than I can count on a daily basis, has helped me find work a dozen times, has provided several companies who I worked for with credible identity, spectacular growth via targeted advertising. I can use Uber, AirBnB and so many more and not fear that the people with whom I share a car or a flat with are dangerous because those companies use Facebook profiles to credibly exclude problematic participants. That’s not me being idealistic: before that, I’ve tried email, CouchSurf, working for company based on email-and-password for almost a decade. It allows me to find interesting view point on current issues and to exclude toxic people from my social circle. I know who the people that I’m talking to are from, what they stand for and I can get that, say, that friend of a friend is probably joking when he’s teasing our common friend about the US Government because… well, he works for the Department of Energy -- that saves me the effort to rant and mansplain to them how gas market works. I’ve moved more than a dozen times, both before and after Facebook: before, you’d need months to find friends and you were limited to classmates, colleagues, religious affiliation; earlier this year, I’ve moved to a mid-sized city and I knew I could find fun people to find a beer on my first night here -- whether those were games, hobby or language-based local groups. I got to explain to my cousin who was an aspiring film-maker how to grow his social presence and drive audience at festival, and he’s now reasonably successful. There is so much more Facebook did: I was in London during 7/7 and there again, during the London Bridge attack -- I can assure you that Safety check saved my loved ones a second heart attack. I met my fiancée at a party and we couldn’t swap numbers because neither of us really knew whether it would make sense, but we didn’t had to explain what technology we meant when we suggested “Let’s write each other for a bit and see what goes”. I remember trying to do the same couple of years earlier for a party where I had nothing but an email list; talk about a series of embarrassing messages to find which one of the seven Julies was the right one. I could go on: there’s a lot more it allowed me to do, as an employee, things I can’t talk about but that I’m incredibly proud of, and that have made the world a meaningfully better place. Now, I’m trying to change my current employer’s very painfully silo-ed culture, to find people in the very large organisation that acquired us four month ago, to explain how to structure a data science project between analyst, different types of engineers, train, get feedback: Workplace, the Facebook-like software is an absolute blessing to leverage my single, anecdotic experience; to isolate motivated, like-minded people; to drive effective corporate change. What I think is impressive now is that Facebook is showing how to properly react to a scandal by explaining it to stakeholders who don’t really seem to want to listen, but throw mud; move on an do the right thing because, still, far more people don’t care than those who do -- and those who do aren’t exactly forthcoming to help. Even now, the company is exposing itself to more criticism because that’s the right thing to do. That might not be ‘a gift to mankind’ but, to me, personally, that response who actively avoid confrontation teaches me that I should be helpful and constructive, even when I’m dealing with dimwits. That I should fight my instinct to respond to a troll on Hacker News, say: “No, asshole, it’s not a gift to mankind but somehow you are too much a low-brow mouth-breathing impulsive cretin to imagine that the opposite of an ‘abomination’ has to be a gift to mankind.” because I’m not the kind of person who gains by speaking in absolutes, or insults, not do I want to be. Overall, it’s fairly positive, I would say.
disconcision 9y ago
consider the hoodie: https://www.google.ca/search?safe=off&tbm=isch&q=zuckerberg+cult+jacket&chips=q:zuckerberg+cult+jacket,online_chips:zuckerberg+hoodie https://www.google.ca/search?safe=off&tbm=isch&q=zuckerberg+...
- seattle_spring 9y ago
  Looks like any other company hoodie? Or are we trending into conspiracy subreddit territory now?
  - chaosite 9y ago
    Yeah, though that one has particularly bad bad graphic design. Cf. "conjoined triangles of success".
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
tqi 9y ago
Have you seen the comments on any Elon Musk related post?
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  I agree with your criticism, however this is slightly different. The difference here is that one is like a promoted company culture, the other one is just like online fanboy hagiography.
  - Bartweiss 9y ago
    I agree that the comments on threads aren't equivalent, but I have to say that every Musk employee I've known is exceedingly passionate about their company - much moreso than the FB people I've known. More than one has explicitly told me they and the other staff treat Musk as something like a father figure, to the point of being excited and proud whenever they find out he'll visit/tour their division. Granted, some of that gap is pretty understandable; building rockets is damned inspiring for a lot of people. But I still have the sense that Facebook isn't anywhere near the top of the "religious attitudes" ladder, they just get called out for it because of what their product does.

It wasn't just FB. the trend was "openness", let the world know everything you do. It was actively pushed by all the media who are today accusing FB of going to far. When facebook was doing everything in and out of the books to grow faster and faster (such as allowing zynga to force-invite your friends to their games) , they were all looking the other way, because they saw a massive source of traffic that they could control themselves (facebook was giving untapped access to likes/followers back then).

TAForObvReasons 9y ago
People sounded the alarm many years ago. EFF from 2009 "predicted" a CA-like event would happen as a direct result of FB policy changes: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/facebooks-new-privacy-changes-good-bad-and-ugly https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/facebooks-new-privacy-... Rest assured, not everyone in technology openly embraced the externality-disregarding "move fast and break things" ideology that took hold of SV in the last decade or so.
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  > Rest assured, not everyone in technology openly embraced the externality-disregarding "move fast and break things" ideology that took hold of SV in the last decade or so. To be honest tho, like I can't blame them, I dont think they were aware of the consequences this might have.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    As bad as Trump is, as bad as the potential foreign propaganda affecting election outcomes is, I'm worried the solution will be worse than the problem. I suspect the two incumbent parties will use this as an opportunity to further cement the two-party system, making it more difficult for third parties or political "outsiders" to have successful campaigns. Russian spending on FB ads was a drop in the ocean compared to the total spend. Congress clearly doesn't care about our privacy as evidenced by the domestic spying programs. Without trying to go too far down the conspiracy rabbit hole, we need to figure out what their real motivation is here. My personal opinion is that they will make it harder for outsiders, including other political parties, to gain any traction.
    - adamnemecek 9y ago
      I share some of your concerns. However re Russian spending, I think that that the current spending estimates are on the lower end. Also the money was spent less wastefully so it might have ended up having larger effect than assumed.
      - Consultant32452 9y ago
        >Also the money was spent less wastefully so it might have ended up having larger effect than assumed. My understanding is the opposite. First, money was spent on both sides. Yes, the majority was in favor of Trump but at least two anti-Trump rallies were allegedly started by Russians. Second, not all the money was spent in swing states. Third, at least according to one FB executive more than half was spent after the election. I'm not suggesting that Russian ads didn't affect the outcome, this was such a close election that even small things could have swayed it one way or the other. At the same time we don't need to exaggerate what really happened.
  - s73v3r_ 9y ago
    They might not have been aware, but to me, that just indicates that they didn't think about the consequences. Other people, who did, fairly accurately predicted that something like CA would happen.

sevensor 9y ago

Hardly unique to Facebook though. Isn't it a bit of a Valley cliché to be on a mission to change the world? To ask employees to believe in the company, not just to work there?

seattle_spring 9y ago
"But my startup is different!"
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
> To ask employees to believe in the company, not just to work there? To ask employees to ACT LIKE they believe in the company "My PhD in maths helped me increase click conversion rate by 1%!! #soexcited " ...and then your employees leave after 1 year.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  > ...and then your employees leave after 1 year. No kidding. I have trouble accepting the "Valley are a cult!" rhetoric, because we're talking about faiths where all the acolytes advocate changing cults every 18 months to progress faster. (Although now that I say it, that could be a great RPG or something - like Paranoia with a Lovecraft setting. Hmm...)

throwaway84742 9y ago

Not just “early”. If you talk to FB employees they do really seem to believe they’re “changing the world”, and that their product is a gift to mankind rather than an abomination.

bertil 9y ago
What makes you think that Facebook is an abomination?
- craftyguy 9y ago
  What makes you think it is a gift to mankind?
  - bertil 9y ago
    It allows me to keep in contact with many of my close friends and my family who live on three continent and more countries than I can count on a daily basis, has helped me find work a dozen times, has provided several companies who I worked for with credible identity, spectacular growth via targeted advertising. I can use Uber, AirBnB and so many more and not fear that the people with whom I share a car or a flat with are dangerous because those companies use Facebook profiles to credibly exclude problematic participants. That’s not me being idealistic: before that, I’ve tried email, CouchSurf, working for company based on email-and-password for almost a decade. It allows me to find interesting view point on current issues and to exclude toxic people from my social circle. I know who the people that I’m talking to are from, what they stand for and I can get that, say, that friend of a friend is probably joking when he’s teasing our common friend about the US Government because… well, he works for the Department of Energy -- that saves me the effort to rant and mansplain to them how gas market works. I’ve moved more than a dozen times, both before and after Facebook: before, you’d need months to find friends and you were limited to classmates, colleagues, religious affiliation; earlier this year, I’ve moved to a mid-sized city and I knew I could find fun people to find a beer on my first night here -- whether those were games, hobby or language-based local groups. I got to explain to my cousin who was an aspiring film-maker how to grow his social presence and drive audience at festival, and he’s now reasonably successful. There is so much more Facebook did: I was in London during 7/7 and there again, during the London Bridge attack -- I can assure you that Safety check saved my loved ones a second heart attack. I met my fiancée at a party and we couldn’t swap numbers because neither of us really knew whether it would make sense, but we didn’t had to explain what technology we meant when we suggested “Let’s write each other for a bit and see what goes”. I remember trying to do the same couple of years earlier for a party where I had nothing but an email list; talk about a series of embarrassing messages to find which one of the seven Julies was the right one. I could go on: there’s a lot more it allowed me to do, as an employee, things I can’t talk about but that I’m incredibly proud of, and that have made the world a meaningfully better place. Now, I’m trying to change my current employer’s very painfully silo-ed culture, to find people in the very large organisation that acquired us four month ago, to explain how to structure a data science project between analyst, different types of engineers, train, get feedback: Workplace, the Facebook-like software is an absolute blessing to leverage my single, anecdotic experience; to isolate motivated, like-minded people; to drive effective corporate change. What I think is impressive now is that Facebook is showing how to properly react to a scandal by explaining it to stakeholders who don’t really seem to want to listen, but throw mud; move on an do the right thing because, still, far more people don’t care than those who do -- and those who do aren’t exactly forthcoming to help. Even now, the company is exposing itself to more criticism because that’s the right thing to do. That might not be ‘a gift to mankind’ but, to me, personally, that response who actively avoid confrontation teaches me that I should be helpful and constructive, even when I’m dealing with dimwits. That I should fight my instinct to respond to a troll on Hacker News, say: “No, asshole, it’s not a gift to mankind but somehow you are too much a low-brow mouth-breathing impulsive cretin to imagine that the opposite of an ‘abomination’ has to be a gift to mankind.” because I’m not the kind of person who gains by speaking in absolutes, or insults, not do I want to be. Overall, it’s fairly positive, I would say.

disconcision 9y ago

consider the hoodie: https://www.google.ca/search?safe=off&tbm=isch&q=zuckerberg+cult+jacket&chips=q:zuckerberg+cult+jacket,online_chips:zuckerberg+hoodie https://www.google.ca/search?safe=off&tbm=isch&q=zuckerberg+...

seattle_spring 9y ago
Looks like any other company hoodie? Or are we trending into conspiracy subreddit territory now?
- chaosite 9y ago
  Yeah, though that one has particularly bad bad graphic design. Cf. "conjoined triangles of success".

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

tqi 9y ago

Have you seen the comments on any Elon Musk related post?

adamnemecek 9y ago
I agree with your criticism, however this is slightly different. The difference here is that one is like a promoted company culture, the other one is just like online fanboy hagiography.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  I agree that the comments on threads aren't equivalent, but I have to say that every Musk employee I've known is exceedingly passionate about their company - much moreso than the FB people I've known. More than one has explicitly told me they and the other staff treat Musk as something like a father figure, to the point of being excited and proud whenever they find out he'll visit/tour their division. Granted, some of that gap is pretty understandable; building rockets is damned inspiring for a lot of people. But I still have the sense that Facebook isn't anywhere near the top of the "religious attitudes" ladder, they just get called out for it because of what their product does.