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As I read this, the New Yorker seemed to highlight the problems from a more leftist, social safety net perspective. The Chinese immigrants circumvented the tax

As I read this, the New Yorker seemed to highlight the problems from a more leftist, social safety net perspective. The Chinese immigrants circumvented the tax code in every way they could - working under the table, starting unregistered businesses in garages and vans, living in the garages and vans, even dying secretly so their passports could be repurposed for new immigrants. This meant hospitals and other public services went underfunded. What I found interesting, though, were the competing right-wing narratives in the lives of the immigrants. They were so ready to live industrious, entrepreneurial lives (largely) outside of the protection of government, pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, while their work ethic, frugality, and ultimate success led to anti-immigrant, nativist sentiments and the politics that reflect them. I tend to be relatively laissez-faire in my tastes for both economic and immigration policy, but watching the right-wing in Europe and the United States reject the latter makes me think the sentiment comes from a deeper, visceral level. Almost like an immune system rejecting something it doesn't recognize. For all the posturing and intellectual maturity of free-market economics and small government policies, it seems that right-wing politics will always find easier alliances among those with xenophobic or even racist sentiments because those motivations are hardwired into our DNA, and embracing your hard wiring is a lot easier than comprehending Friedman or Hayek.

asveikau 8y ago
It's interesting to me that you would see the economic arguments and assume they were a genuinely held first principle and not an inauthentic PR line meant to resonate with the more base fear and hatred. In the United States at least there is a long history of this. Go look up what Lee Atwater said about the southern strategy. Summary: they embraced lines about low taxes and small government because it was getting impolite to campaign with the n word.
- jorblumesea 8y ago
  +1, most talk of "economics" in politics is just to couch or justify some political position that a side wants to push. Actual economics is boring and frankly going to produce some mixed results and no one on either side wants to hear.
- mkirklions 8y ago
  After this most recent presidential election, I believe that racism is ingrained in our DNA. I couldnt believe what I was seeing in the 21st century. Politicians will use this tool until humanity goes extinct.
  - attalus 8y ago
    You really must be a troubled individual.
- mistermann 8y ago
  Unless I'm misunderstanding you, it's interesting to me that you see arguments and (seemingly) can't consider that it's even possible for them to be genuinely held as first principles, and that they must be motivated by "fear" and "hatred" (as if economic protectionism cannot be based in rationality, it must always be racially motivated).
  - asveikau 8y ago
    In the US political example I gave (Lee Atwater), you have a Reagan era strategist who admitted privately on tape that it was racially motivated. And then we have about 4 decades worth of the policy record of what happens when the supposed "small government" advocates get into power. Tell me, why do they end up deficit spending? Is it because they are overwhelmed by the reality of running government? Or is it that they never held the position very strongly in the first place? My personal interpretation is even more cynical, that perhaps they actually like the thing they claim to oppose, so long as it benefits the "right" people.
    - mistermann 8y ago
      So you're telling me their deficit spending proves they're racist?
forkLding 8y ago
Left wing and right wing in my head has always been ivory tower speak, if one is to define left wing and right wing, one would always get distinct definitions. However if one was to rely on the right or left wings for living reasons, or for work or for any realistic situation, one would be hard-pressed to survive, thus left or right wing is only a perspective adopted by those with time as even your average hardworking white-collar investment banker has no time to play in politics. Economics in its original state is not meant to be tainted by politics (this you can find online) as economy tainted with politics is biased and true economists dont follow party lines.
- kiliantics 8y ago
  Sorry, but this is just nonsense. And it's the kind of nonsense that we are being taught to believe for a reason. 100 years ago, almost every worker, down to the most menial of labourers, did care about "left vs right". These kind of talking points that tell hardworking people they don't have to care about politics is exactly why hardworking people aren't forming unions and have been getting the shit end of the stick in society for the last few decades. The personal is political and politics has everything to do with living conditions. It's easy for people in cushy programming jobs to pretend that politics and work are separate. But when politicians can set your minimum wage, your benefits, and other workplace conditions, it becomes an important factor that isn't just "academic".
  - forkLding 8y ago
    Saying you are left wing or saying you are right wing wont get you a job is my summarization, its interesting dinner talk. I cant directly survive on left or right wing politics unless Im a political commentator but you're right in that I'm indirectly affected. Its almost like religion, just because I'm Christian doesnt put food on my table but Christianity affects the culture and society I'm in but I have to be a programmer to actually get a job that pays. You cant apply to jobs saying you're right wing or left wing, all in all people overestimate the 'wings' for their own life. What I hate about modern politics is that people treat it almost like religion, and never question decisions just because its in their own party lines and to follow their party leaders. Left wing, liberals, right wings, or conservative, these are just titles now, but can be fought like Christians and Muslims in the Crusades. Politics isnt blindly following a doctrine or a party like a religion, if people lose the ability to question their own leaders' decisions and instead just faithfully follow, what is the point of separating church from state.
KingBluetooth 8y ago
You can't compare the right-wing in Europe and United States. For example in Sweden our right win party SD is much less about the free market and small government policies. Instead I would say the main goal of SD is to preserve Swedens generous welfare society.
- rsynnott 8y ago
  The new right in the US is also more ambivalent on the free market, though; note Trump's attempts at trade wars.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    Free trade has always been the position of the elites on the US right (and left) more than the masses.
    - emodendroket 8y ago
      This is more true than false, but tariffs were popular with US business leaders really until a little while after the post-war period.
      - AdrianB1 8y ago
        I either got it completely wrong or the tariffs were one of the major income sources in US before income tax was implemented.
        emodendroket 8y ago
        That makes sense, but US business owners also preferred being insulated from foreign competition.
- EastLondonCoder 8y ago
  Thats an odd way of looking at SD. There is a clear macroeconomic consensus that immigration is good for the economy as a whole, the GDP growth Sweden has enjoyed strongly support this. An SD government would be a threat to the Swedish welfare society. This is a party started not by right leaning nationalists but by actual nazis. Gustav Ekström, one of the founders of the party was a volunteer in the Waffen-SS in 1941. Yes the party has changed but these are the kinds of people running the party when the current leadership joined. Its overwhelmingly clear the main reason for the party is to turn Sweden into some sort of white nationalist fantasy where anyone with a brown face is not welcome.
ForRealsies 8y ago
You miss out on the entire nationalistic aspect of right-wing parties. Do these Chinese immigrants owe more loyalty to Italy or their home country? Have they expressed a desire to integrate? Does their "frugality"(read: low wages) drive native Italian purse makers out of business?
michaelt 8y ago
What I found interesting, though, were the competing right-wing narratives in the lives of the immigrants. I got the impression from the article that most of the immigrants interviewed were factory owners, rather than workers. Of course factory owners are keen their workers have "industrious, frugal lives outside the protection of government" - that's the definition of working 12 hours a day in illegally dangerous conditions for a fraction of minimum wage.
ben509 8y ago
> I tend to be relatively laissez-faire in my tastes for both economic and immigration policy, but watching the right-wing in Europe and the United States reject the latter makes me think the sentiment comes from a deeper, visceral level. That neatly encapsulates the downward spiral of left-wing thinking. You've become incapable of listening to anyone else's ideas without finding malicious underlying motives.
jiveturkey 8y ago
> This meant hospitals and other public services went underfunded. I don't buy it. At the wage these folks would make if on the books (ie, minimum wage) they'd pay no or almost no taxes. So we're only talking about lost payroll taxes. Yes, the part of that that goes to public services is lost, but the people on whose behalf they are paid are also not using public services to a large degree. I'm sure it's not exactly a wash, but for the most part public services are paid for by high wage earners.

asveikau 8y ago

It's interesting to me that you would see the economic arguments and assume they were a genuinely held first principle and not an inauthentic PR line meant to resonate with the more base fear and hatred. In the United States at least there is a long history of this. Go look up what Lee Atwater said about the southern strategy. Summary: they embraced lines about low taxes and small government because it was getting impolite to campaign with the n word.

jorblumesea 8y ago
+1, most talk of "economics" in politics is just to couch or justify some political position that a side wants to push. Actual economics is boring and frankly going to produce some mixed results and no one on either side wants to hear.
mkirklions 8y ago
After this most recent presidential election, I believe that racism is ingrained in our DNA. I couldnt believe what I was seeing in the 21st century. Politicians will use this tool until humanity goes extinct.
- attalus 8y ago
  You really must be a troubled individual.
mistermann 8y ago
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, it's interesting to me that you see arguments and (seemingly) can't consider that it's even possible for them to be genuinely held as first principles, and that they must be motivated by "fear" and "hatred" (as if economic protectionism cannot be based in rationality, it must always be racially motivated).
- asveikau 8y ago
  In the US political example I gave (Lee Atwater), you have a Reagan era strategist who admitted privately on tape that it was racially motivated. And then we have about 4 decades worth of the policy record of what happens when the supposed "small government" advocates get into power. Tell me, why do they end up deficit spending? Is it because they are overwhelmed by the reality of running government? Or is it that they never held the position very strongly in the first place? My personal interpretation is even more cynical, that perhaps they actually like the thing they claim to oppose, so long as it benefits the "right" people.
  - mistermann 8y ago
    So you're telling me their deficit spending proves they're racist?

forkLding 8y ago

Left wing and right wing in my head has always been ivory tower speak, if one is to define left wing and right wing, one would always get distinct definitions. However if one was to rely on the right or left wings for living reasons, or for work or for any realistic situation, one would be hard-pressed to survive, thus left or right wing is only a perspective adopted by those with time as even your average hardworking white-collar investment banker has no time to play in politics. Economics in its original state is not meant to be tainted by politics (this you can find online) as economy tainted with politics is biased and true economists dont follow party lines.

kiliantics 8y ago
Sorry, but this is just nonsense. And it's the kind of nonsense that we are being taught to believe for a reason. 100 years ago, almost every worker, down to the most menial of labourers, did care about "left vs right". These kind of talking points that tell hardworking people they don't have to care about politics is exactly why hardworking people aren't forming unions and have been getting the shit end of the stick in society for the last few decades. The personal is political and politics has everything to do with living conditions. It's easy for people in cushy programming jobs to pretend that politics and work are separate. But when politicians can set your minimum wage, your benefits, and other workplace conditions, it becomes an important factor that isn't just "academic".
- forkLding 8y ago
  Saying you are left wing or saying you are right wing wont get you a job is my summarization, its interesting dinner talk. I cant directly survive on left or right wing politics unless Im a political commentator but you're right in that I'm indirectly affected. Its almost like religion, just because I'm Christian doesnt put food on my table but Christianity affects the culture and society I'm in but I have to be a programmer to actually get a job that pays. You cant apply to jobs saying you're right wing or left wing, all in all people overestimate the 'wings' for their own life. What I hate about modern politics is that people treat it almost like religion, and never question decisions just because its in their own party lines and to follow their party leaders. Left wing, liberals, right wings, or conservative, these are just titles now, but can be fought like Christians and Muslims in the Crusades. Politics isnt blindly following a doctrine or a party like a religion, if people lose the ability to question their own leaders' decisions and instead just faithfully follow, what is the point of separating church from state.

KingBluetooth 8y ago

You can't compare the right-wing in Europe and United States. For example in Sweden our right win party SD is much less about the free market and small government policies. Instead I would say the main goal of SD is to preserve Swedens generous welfare society.

rsynnott 8y ago
The new right in the US is also more ambivalent on the free market, though; note Trump's attempts at trade wars.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Free trade has always been the position of the elites on the US right (and left) more than the masses.
  - emodendroket 8y ago
    This is more true than false, but tariffs were popular with US business leaders really until a little while after the post-war period.
    - AdrianB1 8y ago
      I either got it completely wrong or the tariffs were one of the major income sources in US before income tax was implemented.
      - emodendroket 8y ago
        That makes sense, but US business owners also preferred being insulated from foreign competition.
EastLondonCoder 8y ago
Thats an odd way of looking at SD. There is a clear macroeconomic consensus that immigration is good for the economy as a whole, the GDP growth Sweden has enjoyed strongly support this. An SD government would be a threat to the Swedish welfare society. This is a party started not by right leaning nationalists but by actual nazis. Gustav Ekström, one of the founders of the party was a volunteer in the Waffen-SS in 1941. Yes the party has changed but these are the kinds of people running the party when the current leadership joined. Its overwhelmingly clear the main reason for the party is to turn Sweden into some sort of white nationalist fantasy where anyone with a brown face is not welcome.

ForRealsies 8y ago

You miss out on the entire nationalistic aspect of right-wing parties. Do these Chinese immigrants owe more loyalty to Italy or their home country? Have they expressed a desire to integrate? Does their "frugality"(read: low wages) drive native Italian purse makers out of business?

michaelt 8y ago

What I found interesting, though, were the competing right-wing narratives in the lives of the immigrants. I got the impression from the article that most of the immigrants interviewed were factory owners, rather than workers. Of course factory owners are keen their workers have "industrious, frugal lives outside the protection of government" - that's the definition of working 12 hours a day in illegally dangerous conditions for a fraction of minimum wage.

ben509 8y ago

> I tend to be relatively laissez-faire in my tastes for both economic and immigration policy, but watching the right-wing in Europe and the United States reject the latter makes me think the sentiment comes from a deeper, visceral level. That neatly encapsulates the downward spiral of left-wing thinking. You've become incapable of listening to anyone else's ideas without finding malicious underlying motives.

jiveturkey 8y ago

> This meant hospitals and other public services went underfunded. I don't buy it. At the wage these folks would make if on the books (ie, minimum wage) they'd pay no or almost no taxes. So we're only talking about lost payroll taxes. Yes, the part of that that goes to public services is lost, but the people on whose behalf they are paid are also not using public services to a large degree. I'm sure it's not exactly a wash, but for the most part public services are paid for by high wage earners.