4 ms·

And the counter-argument remains that you can customize tabs to whatever length you want. Set "tab-size: 4;" in CSS.

zorkw4rg 8y ago
I'm pretty sure its perfectly aligned if you have the correct tab size that was used for the whole project. Which is the stupidest thing about using tabs over spaces.
- SquareWheel 8y ago
  It looks fine to me at even 8, so I'm not sure what you mean.
  - zorkw4rg 8y ago
    example: https://github.com/id-Software/Quake-III-Arena/blob/master/code/ui/ui_players.c#L700 https://github.com/id-Software/Quake-III-Arena/blob/master/c...
    - SquareWheel 8y ago
      Okay, I can see the issue there. Though it's worth keeping in mind that tabs are for indentation and not alignment. Even people that use tabs would agree that is a poor use.
martin-t 8y ago
Tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment. You wouldn't need to customize anything, it would look good at all tab widths and people who prefer 2 space sized indents would be able to use that in their editors. Actually, it could be even better, we could use tabs for aligning to tables too if editors supported elastic tabstops [0]. Unfortunately, the only ones that do don't support other essential features like saving when they lose focus. Please note that i disagree with how the example aligns function params. The space/tab there looks bad and params should be aligned with spaces using a formatting tool (which every sane language should have). Or, y'know, scratch that, why don't we commit the AST (enhanced to include comments and other hints like blank lines) to git and let everyone use their formatting. </rant> [0]: http://nickgravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/ http://nickgravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/
simias 8y ago
Only works if people use tabs for indentation and spaces for alignment which I've never seen anybody maintain successfully on a big project. The code the parent linked is not indentation, it's alignment so it should be formatted using spaces regardless otherwise it breaks that way. If you have to impose tab width to have proper readability then what's the point? Try hacking the linux kernel with tabs != 8 spaces and see how long you last before all the broken alignment drives you crazy. Furthermore if your coding style imposes some kind of width restriction you also have to commit to a certain tab width anyway. Beyond that if you really value configurability it's a bit odd to limit yourself to "I want to configure tab width". How about bracket positions, spacing between operators, variable names etc... ? All these seems are arguably more important for readability and code understanding than indentation. Ideally programming languages would be stored as abstract syntax trees that you can display however you like but we're still using dumb all ASCII text files. In theory tabs are mildly superior to spaces, pragmatically it's spaces all day every day as far as I'm concerned.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Only works if people use tabs for indentation and spaces for alignment which I've never seen anybody maintain successfully on a big project. It shouldn't be left to the devs. All languages should have something like Go's gofmt -- or even better, mandatory whitespacing/tabs rules. If you don't respect them (which the auto format tool could help you automatically do), the program shouldn't compile.
  - warmwaffles 8y ago
    > All languages should have something like Go's gofmt -- or even better, mandatory whitespacing/tabs rules. If you don't respect them (which the auto format tool could help you automatically do), the program shouldn't compile. It exists `clang-format`
    - coldtea 8y ago
      Formatters / indent do exist. But they're not widely accepted by most languages devs (like gofmt is by Go programmers), nor is their use enforced by the compiler (even in Go).
taneq 8y ago
That's the problem, though. People do that, and then to indent 12 spaces, your guy who uses 4-space tabs will put three tabs, your girl who uses 8-space tabs will put a tab and four spaces, and your ace who uses only spaces will put twelve spaces. And after a year of sharing code doing this, your formatting will be farked and you'll spend half your time fixing other peoples' "broken" indentation. I have no issue whatsoever with using tabs in an editor, as long as it saves them as spaces on disk.
- iforgotpassword 8y ago
  You do not "indent 12 spaces", you have levels of indentation. If you indent code only using tabs it doesn't matter whether you set your tab width to 4, 8 or 20, it will always display properly. Feel free to change your tab width hourly, still no problem. The only valid argument is that mixing spaces and tabs for indentation messes things up, but that argument works both ways so doesn't support either side in this never ending argument.
  - esrauch 8y ago
    It is trivial both to ban tabs and to bulk convert tabs to spaces in a codebase or presubmit hook. The other direction seems impossible. That means that if you want to avoid a mixed codebase it is far easier to get to and stay at spaces only than tabs-for-indent, spaces-for-alignment.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - taneq 8y ago
    Still messes with alignment if you want to do things like keep your comments aligned at the right of the page.
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  The solution is to have the repository refuse checkins with bad indentation. Anyone who can program can follow indentation rules, many people just can’t be bothered. But they can if there is no alternative.
snarfy 8y ago
Ah yes tab, the only ascii character where the rendering is user configurable.
- dTal 8y ago
  Not at all. ASCII 0x07 ("BEL") can do anything as long as it notifies the user. Traditionally it makes a beep (volume, duration, and frequency unspecified, settable on X Windows with 'xset b') but implementations vary - OSX Terminal plays the system warning sound, while my Zipit Z2 frenetically blinks an LED. Of course you can also configure all the alphanumeric characters by changing your terminal font. I'm only half joking - it's not supposed to be important what the letters look like, only what they mean. ASCII art is not guaranteed to look good, whether or not it uses tabs.
  - SquareWheel 8y ago
    Not to mention monospace vs proportional fonts. Cool example on BEL.

I'm pretty sure its perfectly aligned if you have the correct tab size that was used for the whole project. Which is the stupidest thing about using tabs over spaces.

SquareWheel 8y ago
It looks fine to me at even 8, so I'm not sure what you mean.
- zorkw4rg 8y ago
  example: https://github.com/id-Software/Quake-III-Arena/blob/master/code/ui/ui_players.c#L700 https://github.com/id-Software/Quake-III-Arena/blob/master/c...
  - SquareWheel 8y ago
    Okay, I can see the issue there. Though it's worth keeping in mind that tabs are for indentation and not alignment. Even people that use tabs would agree that is a poor use.

martin-t 8y ago

Tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment. You wouldn't need to customize anything, it would look good at all tab widths and people who prefer 2 space sized indents would be able to use that in their editors. Actually, it could be even better, we could use tabs for aligning to tables too if editors supported elastic tabstops [0]. Unfortunately, the only ones that do don't support other essential features like saving when they lose focus. Please note that i disagree with how the example aligns function params. The space/tab there looks bad and params should be aligned with spaces using a formatting tool (which every sane language should have). Or, y'know, scratch that, why don't we commit the AST (enhanced to include comments and other hints like blank lines) to git and let everyone use their formatting. </rant> [0]: http://nickgravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/ http://nickgravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/

simias 8y ago

Only works if people use tabs for indentation and spaces for alignment which I've never seen anybody maintain successfully on a big project. The code the parent linked is not indentation, it's alignment so it should be formatted using spaces regardless otherwise it breaks that way. If you have to impose tab width to have proper readability then what's the point? Try hacking the linux kernel with tabs != 8 spaces and see how long you last before all the broken alignment drives you crazy. Furthermore if your coding style imposes some kind of width restriction you also have to commit to a certain tab width anyway. Beyond that if you really value configurability it's a bit odd to limit yourself to "I want to configure tab width". How about bracket positions, spacing between operators, variable names etc... ? All these seems are arguably more important for readability and code understanding than indentation. Ideally programming languages would be stored as abstract syntax trees that you can display however you like but we're still using dumb all ASCII text files. In theory tabs are mildly superior to spaces, pragmatically it's spaces all day every day as far as I'm concerned.

coldtea 8y ago
>Only works if people use tabs for indentation and spaces for alignment which I've never seen anybody maintain successfully on a big project. It shouldn't be left to the devs. All languages should have something like Go's gofmt -- or even better, mandatory whitespacing/tabs rules. If you don't respect them (which the auto format tool could help you automatically do), the program shouldn't compile.
- warmwaffles 8y ago
  > All languages should have something like Go's gofmt -- or even better, mandatory whitespacing/tabs rules. If you don't respect them (which the auto format tool could help you automatically do), the program shouldn't compile. It exists `clang-format`
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Formatters / indent do exist. But they're not widely accepted by most languages devs (like gofmt is by Go programmers), nor is their use enforced by the compiler (even in Go).

taneq 8y ago

That's the problem, though. People do that, and then to indent 12 spaces, your guy who uses 4-space tabs will put three tabs, your girl who uses 8-space tabs will put a tab and four spaces, and your ace who uses only spaces will put twelve spaces. And after a year of sharing code doing this, your formatting will be farked and you'll spend half your time fixing other peoples' "broken" indentation. I have no issue whatsoever with using tabs in an editor, as long as it saves them as spaces on disk.

iforgotpassword 8y ago
You do not "indent 12 spaces", you have levels of indentation. If you indent code only using tabs it doesn't matter whether you set your tab width to 4, 8 or 20, it will always display properly. Feel free to change your tab width hourly, still no problem. The only valid argument is that mixing spaces and tabs for indentation messes things up, but that argument works both ways so doesn't support either side in this never ending argument.
- esrauch 8y ago
  It is trivial both to ban tabs and to bulk convert tabs to spaces in a codebase or presubmit hook. The other direction seems impossible. That means that if you want to avoid a mixed codebase it is far easier to get to and stay at spaces only than tabs-for-indent, spaces-for-alignment.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- taneq 8y ago
  Still messes with alignment if you want to do things like keep your comments aligned at the right of the page.
tinus_hn 8y ago
The solution is to have the repository refuse checkins with bad indentation. Anyone who can program can follow indentation rules, many people just can’t be bothered. But they can if there is no alternative.

snarfy 8y ago

Ah yes tab, the only ascii character where the rendering is user configurable.

dTal 8y ago
Not at all. ASCII 0x07 ("BEL") can do anything as long as it notifies the user. Traditionally it makes a beep (volume, duration, and frequency unspecified, settable on X Windows with 'xset b') but implementations vary - OSX Terminal plays the system warning sound, while my Zipit Z2 frenetically blinks an LED. Of course you can also configure all the alphanumeric characters by changing your terminal font. I'm only half joking - it's not supposed to be important what the letters look like, only what they mean. ASCII art is not guaranteed to look good, whether or not it uses tabs.
- SquareWheel 8y ago
  Not to mention monospace vs proportional fonts. Cool example on BEL.