6 ms·

Lot's of people are mentioning the well-known phase 'Embrace, extend, and extinguish', but what if it ends up being Linux that does the extinguishing? Linux ha

Lot's of people are mentioning the well-known phase 'Embrace, extend, and extinguish', but what if it ends up being Linux that does the extinguishing? Linux has always been a pain for the average user to run on a laptop or desktop, but these days Windows isn't that much better and I don't think it'll get much better. I'm sure lots of you will think I'm crazy, but I figured it would be an interesting discussion topic.

incompatible 8y ago
Windows seems far worse to me, and has always seemed worse. Somebody just asked me to help fix their Windows laptop, which is running ridiculously slowly. My inclination is to wipe it and install a fresh version of Windows. That'd be pretty easy in Linux (I use a separate /home partition and routinely reinstall the OS) but Windows is such a mess, how do you untangle the user's own data and installed software?
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  > That'd be pretty easy in Linux (I use a separate /home partition and routinely reinstall the OS) but Windows is such a mess, how do you untangle the user's own data and installed software? %UserProfile%\{Desktop,Documents,Music,Pictures,Videos,...}?
  - incompatible 8y ago
    Is %UserProfile% an environment variable? Will there be multiple settings of it? Hopefully if the user's data is all in one subdirectory tree and I could cope. I'm not sure if it will work for software though, it tends to require random setup like registry changes and would also require reinstallation. Which may be difficult if it was pay-to-install software of if the original vendor is defunct.
    - mehrdadn 8y ago
      > Is %UserProfile% an environment variable? Is $HOME an environmental variable? It's certainly exposed as one. Same here. > Will there be multiple settings of it? Will there be multiple settings of $HOME? You can certainly set it to a different value for some program, but does that mean you have multiple settings of it? Same here. > Hopefully if the user's data is all in one subdirectory tree and I could cope. "Hopefully" the same is true when you do the same on Linux and cope there? > I'm not sure if it will work for software though, it tends to require random setup like registry changes and would also require reinstallation. Which may be difficult if it was pay-to-install software of if the original vendor is defunct. ...what? You explicitly asked about saving "user's own data" and not "installed software". The entire point of your comment was that you wanted to wipe the software while keeping the user data. So I gave you a solution for keeping the user data that let you wipe the software. Now you complain it doesn't work for migrating installed software?!
      - lexicality 8y ago
        > ...what? You explicitly asked about saving "user's own data" and not "installed software". The entire point of your comment was that you wanted to wipe the software and keep the user data. So I gave you a solution for keeping the user data and letting you wipe the software. Now you complain it doesn't work for migrating installed software?! I think they want to disentangle the user's installed software from the OS, rather than disentangling the software from the data.
        incompatible 8y ago
        Yes, that was it.
        mehrdadn 8y ago
        > I think they want to disentangle the user's installed software from the OS, rather than disentangling the software from the data. Huh? /home on Linux contains user software now? That's literally the example he gave for this on Linux...
        8y ago
- lexicality 8y ago
  Generally speaking with modern Windows, it's the user's installed software that's the problem rather than the OS. There's a button in the settings to remove it all: https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/17085/windows-8-restore-refresh-reset-pc https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/17085/windows-8-res...
  - incompatible 8y ago
    Thanks.
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    > Generally speaking with modern Windows, it's the user's installed software that's the problem rather than the OS. It's the same problem on Linux... sudo {apt-get install,pacman -S,whatever} $blah and now have fun setting up and restoring everything in /etc/, ~/, /var, ~/.config/, etc. to just like it was before.
pritambaral 8y ago
Whenever EEE has been brought up in the context of Microsoft, it has been used to describe a predatory behaviour. Indeed, the "Extinguish" part is facilitated by the "Extend" portion being a proprietary lock-in. Using Linux (the kernel) to pull off such proprietary lock-in is going to be difficult because of the kernel's GPLv2 license (although, Tivoization is still an available tactic). Using the Linux desktop (which is what you seem to be talking about), on the other hand, to pull of such proprietary lock-in is going to compete directly with Windows's desktop market share; which is why I think Microsoft will never push the Linux desktop in an Embrace-Extend attempt.
- robertelder 8y ago
  For the sake of discussion, let's assume that the 'extinguish' step can be generalized to include something other than the proprietary lock-in.
  - pritambaral 8y ago
    > something other than the proprietary lock-in. Something like ... freedom lock-in? I'm not sure I see how EEE can be without some form of lock-in. A trap is necessarily required for the "Extinguish" step to work.
- freeone3000 8y ago
  "Tivoization" is the entire value-add here. IoT devices will run SOME linux. But they want an easy to use, secure Linux. Microsoft's model here is to tack on those bits and charge. It's not some secret ploy, it's in the article. As for desktop linux: microsoft has four versions of linux userland in its app store for desktop, published by Microsoft. Windows provides drivers and boot - that's its value-add.
  - pritambaral 8y ago
    > "Tivoization" is the entire value-add here. In the context of the GPL, "Tivoization" refers specifically to the practice of blocking modifications to the running software without breaking the copyleft requirements of GPLv2 (and similar) licenses. Sure, Microsoft could that here, but hasn't so far. And while I'm not inclined to believe they'll do the right thing, I don't see or suspect them doing the wrong thing yet. > Microsoft's model here is to tack on those bits and charge. It's not some secret ploy, it's in the article. I did not allege any secret ploy. And from what I read, there's no mention of any charges (yet). > published by Microsoft Which distros exactly? As I recalled (and just verified), Ubuntu, OpenSuSE, and Debian are published by Canonical, SuSE, and Debian, respectively. > Windows provides drivers and boot Not adequately enough, one could argue. No graphics, no raw devices, last I checked.
incompatible 8y ago
Not to mention Windows deciding seemingly randomly that it needs to take complete control of the machine for 5 hours to install updates. Not exactly user friendly.
zeth___ 8y ago
Linux has better legacy windows support than Windows for windows apps already. As you say, it's not user friendly, but when your boss tells you 'get this working or else', wine will get you there eventually. Now if this was packaged in a better way that the average user could use it would be a huge boost to Linux.
jcfrei 8y ago
Linux has a fantastic kernel but when it comes to the stuff running in user space it's really hit and miss. For a lot of domain specific applications there are no equivalents on Linux: Image and video editing, music sequencing, spreadsheets, games, etc. Until the developers behind these applications create a decent Linux port Windows (and macOS) are here to stay.
beenBoutIT 8y ago
Windows is the tech equivalent of big tobacco, minus the cool factor. Linux is eventually going to extinguish MS.

incompatible 8y ago

Windows seems far worse to me, and has always seemed worse. Somebody just asked me to help fix their Windows laptop, which is running ridiculously slowly. My inclination is to wipe it and install a fresh version of Windows. That'd be pretty easy in Linux (I use a separate /home partition and routinely reinstall the OS) but Windows is such a mess, how do you untangle the user's own data and installed software?

mehrdadn 8y ago
> That'd be pretty easy in Linux (I use a separate /home partition and routinely reinstall the OS) but Windows is such a mess, how do you untangle the user's own data and installed software? %UserProfile%\{Desktop,Documents,Music,Pictures,Videos,...}?
- incompatible 8y ago
  Is %UserProfile% an environment variable? Will there be multiple settings of it? Hopefully if the user's data is all in one subdirectory tree and I could cope. I'm not sure if it will work for software though, it tends to require random setup like registry changes and would also require reinstallation. Which may be difficult if it was pay-to-install software of if the original vendor is defunct.
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    > Is %UserProfile% an environment variable? Is $HOME an environmental variable? It's certainly exposed as one. Same here. > Will there be multiple settings of it? Will there be multiple settings of $HOME? You can certainly set it to a different value for some program, but does that mean you have multiple settings of it? Same here. > Hopefully if the user's data is all in one subdirectory tree and I could cope. "Hopefully" the same is true when you do the same on Linux and cope there? > I'm not sure if it will work for software though, it tends to require random setup like registry changes and would also require reinstallation. Which may be difficult if it was pay-to-install software of if the original vendor is defunct. ...what? You explicitly asked about saving "user's own data" and not "installed software". The entire point of your comment was that you wanted to wipe the software while keeping the user data. So I gave you a solution for keeping the user data that let you wipe the software. Now you complain it doesn't work for migrating installed software?!
    - lexicality 8y ago
      > ...what? You explicitly asked about saving "user's own data" and not "installed software". The entire point of your comment was that you wanted to wipe the software and keep the user data. So I gave you a solution for keeping the user data and letting you wipe the software. Now you complain it doesn't work for migrating installed software?! I think they want to disentangle the user's installed software from the OS, rather than disentangling the software from the data.
      - incompatible 8y ago
        Yes, that was it.
      - mehrdadn 8y ago
        > I think they want to disentangle the user's installed software from the OS, rather than disentangling the software from the data. Huh? /home on Linux contains user software now? That's literally the example he gave for this on Linux...
        8y ago
lexicality 8y ago
Generally speaking with modern Windows, it's the user's installed software that's the problem rather than the OS. There's a button in the settings to remove it all: https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/17085/windows-8-restore-refresh-reset-pc https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/17085/windows-8-res...
- incompatible 8y ago
  Thanks.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  > Generally speaking with modern Windows, it's the user's installed software that's the problem rather than the OS. It's the same problem on Linux... sudo {apt-get install,pacman -S,whatever} $blah and now have fun setting up and restoring everything in /etc/, ~/, /var, ~/.config/, etc. to just like it was before.

pritambaral 8y ago

Whenever EEE has been brought up in the context of Microsoft, it has been used to describe a predatory behaviour. Indeed, the "Extinguish" part is facilitated by the "Extend" portion being a proprietary lock-in. Using Linux (the kernel) to pull off such proprietary lock-in is going to be difficult because of the kernel's GPLv2 license (although, Tivoization is still an available tactic). Using the Linux desktop (which is what you seem to be talking about), on the other hand, to pull of such proprietary lock-in is going to compete directly with Windows's desktop market share; which is why I think Microsoft will never push the Linux desktop in an Embrace-Extend attempt.

robertelder 8y ago
For the sake of discussion, let's assume that the 'extinguish' step can be generalized to include something other than the proprietary lock-in.
- pritambaral 8y ago
  > something other than the proprietary lock-in. Something like ... freedom lock-in? I'm not sure I see how EEE can be without some form of lock-in. A trap is necessarily required for the "Extinguish" step to work.
freeone3000 8y ago
"Tivoization" is the entire value-add here. IoT devices will run SOME linux. But they want an easy to use, secure Linux. Microsoft's model here is to tack on those bits and charge. It's not some secret ploy, it's in the article. As for desktop linux: microsoft has four versions of linux userland in its app store for desktop, published by Microsoft. Windows provides drivers and boot - that's its value-add.
- pritambaral 8y ago
  > "Tivoization" is the entire value-add here. In the context of the GPL, "Tivoization" refers specifically to the practice of blocking modifications to the running software without breaking the copyleft requirements of GPLv2 (and similar) licenses. Sure, Microsoft could that here, but hasn't so far. And while I'm not inclined to believe they'll do the right thing, I don't see or suspect them doing the wrong thing yet. > Microsoft's model here is to tack on those bits and charge. It's not some secret ploy, it's in the article. I did not allege any secret ploy. And from what I read, there's no mention of any charges (yet). > published by Microsoft Which distros exactly? As I recalled (and just verified), Ubuntu, OpenSuSE, and Debian are published by Canonical, SuSE, and Debian, respectively. > Windows provides drivers and boot Not adequately enough, one could argue. No graphics, no raw devices, last I checked.

incompatible 8y ago

Not to mention Windows deciding seemingly randomly that it needs to take complete control of the machine for 5 hours to install updates. Not exactly user friendly.

zeth___ 8y ago

Linux has better legacy windows support than Windows for windows apps already. As you say, it's not user friendly, but when your boss tells you 'get this working or else', wine will get you there eventually. Now if this was packaged in a better way that the average user could use it would be a huge boost to Linux.

jcfrei 8y ago

Linux has a fantastic kernel but when it comes to the stuff running in user space it's really hit and miss. For a lot of domain specific applications there are no equivalents on Linux: Image and video editing, music sequencing, spreadsheets, games, etc. Until the developers behind these applications create a decent Linux port Windows (and macOS) are here to stay.

beenBoutIT 8y ago

Windows is the tech equivalent of big tobacco, minus the cool factor. Linux is eventually going to extinguish MS.