9 ms·

You may be overestimating how easy cut and cover is. I live in the city of Antwerp where they decided to dig up the central crossing that connects the main shop

by Joeri 9y ago

You may be overestimating how easy cut and cover is. I live in the city of Antwerp where they decided to dig up the central crossing that connects the main shopping street with the main traffic hub, to redesign it so cars would go underneath and shoppers can walk across the crossing unimpeded. It was planned for 18 months, and now is projected to be closer to 3 years. This is what it looks like when you do such a thing: https://gvacdn.akamaized.net/Assets/Images_Upload/2017/08/18/12224bba-837c-11e7-b40e-532a965b2906_web_scale_0.0592116_0.0592116__.jpg?maxheight=465&maxwidth=700 https://gvacdn.akamaized.net/Assets/Images_Upload/2017/08/18... The stores in the neighborhood are complaining that they'll probably go out of business before the works are done.

andys627 9y ago
Give subsidies to the businesses that are affected...
steve_adams_86 9y ago
In Vancouver, BC, many business did go out of business when a skytrain line was built through a few communities. It can be devastating.
- brailsafe 9y ago
  Where are you thinking of? Many skytrain stations are either built away from businesses or now have businesses depending on them.
  - kridsdale1 9y ago
    Canada Line in 2010
tibbon 9y ago
I concur; just replacing some sewer pipes on Cedar St in Somerville is taking 2+ years of construction, and plans have been underway since 2013 and still aren't done. It's a residential street without too much odd about it. https://www.somervillema.gov/cedarstreet https://www.somervillema.gov/cedarstreet https://www.somervillema.gov/sites/default/files/cedar-street-overview-presentation.pdf https://www.somervillema.gov/sites/default/files/cedar-stree...
- megaman22 9y ago
  I'm not sure it's possible to dig a hole in Massachusetts without it taking 10x longer and costing 10x more than planned...
  - Thriptic 9y ago
    Or touch a bridge for that matter
tomger 9y ago
@Joerie the 2nd ave/Q lines has literally taken more than a decade.
khuey 9y ago
If the cost savings on the construction are enough you could probably just pay off the local businesses.
- lallysingh 9y ago
  In NYC that'd be tough. Those businesses go through a lot of money to survive. A single restaurant near me on the 2nd ave route, back in 2010, was paying $50k/month just in rent. That was just 1 diner. And on taxpayer's expense?
  - wbl 9y ago
    Rents go down too if there is construction.
    - x220 9y ago
      Genius
    - ordinaryperson 9y ago
      By what, magic? Most businesses sign long-term leases, often 10 years. Landlords are under no legal obligation to offer rent breaks while construction is underway. In fact, landlords would probably prefer the businesses go under so they can sign more lucrative deals post-subway construction -- see the current NYC store vacancy problem: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/change-math-keeping-nyc-storefronts-vacant-article-1.3932715 http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/change-math-keeping-nyc-s... You're assuming the area will become undesirable during construction and landlords will be forced to offer cheaper rates to lure tenants, but as we see above more likely they'd prefer to wait. Especially if a subway is about to be built there.
- wott 9y ago
  That's how it goes in other countries: if the construction work lasts longer than N days and affects a business, there is a compensation.
virgilp 9y ago
> in the city of Antwerp So, Belgium. > and now is projected to be closer to 3 years. Right. Belgium. :P
- BerislavLopac 9y ago
  You're being downvoted for profanity.
- dang 9y ago
  National slights aren't ok on HN, so please don't post them here. (Unless I've misinterpreted this comment and it means something I've missed completely, in which case sorry.)
jwilliams 9y ago
> You may be overestimating how easy cut and cover is. You're right. In fact, the Market Street passage of BART/Muni in San Francisco was a cut and cover. The closure of Market Street and delays in construction caused a lot of damage. Not the least of which the collapse of businesses[1] The Theaters went out of business, became porn cinemas and liquor stores. Much of what Civic is today was a result of that era. Not to say Cut and Cover was the 100% cause - but it was a major, major contributor. 1: https://hoodline.com/2016/07/in-their-words-the-convergent-histories-of-mid-market-and-civic-center https://hoodline.com/2016/07/in-their-words-the-convergent-h...
- turbografx16 9y ago
  Vancouver too. The Canada line expansion killed the vast majority of cambie's family owned / small businesses.
  - fredophile 9y ago
    In contrast, it didn't kill the downtown businesses on Granville St. While any long term construction is probably going to negatively impact adjacent businesses that doesn't mean cut and cover is going to be the wrong decision to make in every case.
  - bdamm 9y ago
    Having recently witnessed the boom in construction around the Canada Line stations, I'm not sure I agree. Many businesses on Cambie are doing very well, including some that hung on through the difficult time when the line was being built. Yes, some went out of business and that is sad, but many survived and fortunes seem to be up as a result.
    - kridsdale1 9y ago
      These are the vultures who got fat on the carcasses of those that didn’t survive.
- jdblair 9y ago
  Simultaneously, BART construction had a similar detrimental effect in downtown Oakland. Arguably, it is only now recovering.
thegayngler 9y ago
Isn't this temporary? The government should be concerned with the long term benefit to the city overall. The businesses that come in afterwards would likely benefit from subway access.
- bronson 9y ago
  Nope. The Bart trench appears to have turned Market St into a slum for generations (and this is despite all the municipal money being poured into transbay and other nearby sites). Well, it IS getting better, slowly. Maybe it will take 75 years to recover. How long-term are you thinking?
- diab0lic 9y ago
  Sure it is temporary and the businesses established afterwards would benefit greatly. However you're discouraging the establishment of new businesses in general if your policy includes not caring about the short term effects. What if that subway needs major maintenance in two years because of a mistake during construction? Why would I open a business on that street if the city has already shown it'll put me out of business to work on it?
- ekianjo 9y ago
  > The government should be concerned with the long term benefit to the city overall. The government should first be concerned by not crushing individuals' rights. That is what Rule of Law is for. Many societies have been utterly destroyed by putting "the general good" as a pretext for policies.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    What “rights” do individual property owners have to public streets adjacent to their property?
    - fwn 9y ago
      Contingency. That's just a standard good governance principle.
anonu 9y ago
> The stores in the neighborhood are complaining that they'll probably go out of business before the works are done. Even with the tunnel boring they did on the Upper East Side of NYC for the 2nd Ave Subway, half the avenue was dedicated to construction entrances and other above-ground activities. Ultimately, may stores did go out of business. My point is, tunnel boring is also quite disruptive to what happens at the street level.
- thetinguy 9y ago
  The tunnels were built with TBMs. The actual stations were cut and cover.
  - bobthepanda 9y ago
    You can't really build stations any other way. New York is way too expensive to buy property alongside the road as an access shaft, and in any case you need to be able to access both tracks from any given entrance. So either you have an island platform directly under the middle of the street or two side platforms on either side, both of which would need a connecting passageway the width of the street, from street to platform.
bobthepanda 9y ago
The problem is that the alternative is not necessarily better. The Second Avenue Subway stub took about a decade to build, and even though New York opted to use less disruptive surface methods, it ended up taking much longer. 3 years is better than 10.
foobarian 9y ago
This is now reminding me of this blog I found on HN yesterday: http://www.michaelnygard.com/blog/2015/07/the-fear-cycle/ http://www.michaelnygard.com/blog/2015/07/the-fear-cycle/ Once you have enough sewer/natural gas/electric/cable/telephone/fiber/water/who knows what else/ lines buried under the streets I can totally understand how nobody would want to touch that with a ten foot pole, just like legacy code :)
lathiat 9y ago
You probably also underestimate the amount of infrastructure under the street - not just power, water, sewerage but also network, fibre, etc. It is not remotely a small job to do such a thing. Not to say that it can't work out (or that some of those services don't have to be moved for tunnels) -- but cut and cover was a lot easier when we had less infrastructure. These problems are obviously 10x in such a dense city as NYC.
- acjohnson55 9y ago
  I've read before that in many places, they don't even know exactly what's below the street. These sorts of surprises are the bane of budgets and schedules for massive public works projects.
wklauss 9y ago
> You may be overestimating how easy cut and cover is. Not only that, it's not always feasible depending on the depth of the tunnel. The 2nd ave tunnel is 80 feet deep, and in a city with heavy underground infrastructure already in place.

by Joeri 9y ago

andys627 9y ago

Give subsidies to the businesses that are affected...

steve_adams_86 9y ago

In Vancouver, BC, many business did go out of business when a skytrain line was built through a few communities. It can be devastating.

brailsafe 9y ago
Where are you thinking of? Many skytrain stations are either built away from businesses or now have businesses depending on them.
- kridsdale1 9y ago
  Canada Line in 2010

tibbon 9y ago

I concur; just replacing some sewer pipes on Cedar St in Somerville is taking 2+ years of construction, and plans have been underway since 2013 and still aren't done. It's a residential street without too much odd about it. https://www.somervillema.gov/cedarstreet https://www.somervillema.gov/cedarstreet https://www.somervillema.gov/sites/default/files/cedar-street-overview-presentation.pdf https://www.somervillema.gov/sites/default/files/cedar-stree...

megaman22 9y ago
I'm not sure it's possible to dig a hole in Massachusetts without it taking 10x longer and costing 10x more than planned...
- Thriptic 9y ago
  Or touch a bridge for that matter

tomger 9y ago

@Joerie the 2nd ave/Q lines has literally taken more than a decade.

khuey 9y ago

If the cost savings on the construction are enough you could probably just pay off the local businesses.

lallysingh 9y ago
In NYC that'd be tough. Those businesses go through a lot of money to survive. A single restaurant near me on the 2nd ave route, back in 2010, was paying $50k/month just in rent. That was just 1 diner. And on taxpayer's expense?
- wbl 9y ago
  Rents go down too if there is construction.
  - x220 9y ago
    Genius
  - ordinaryperson 9y ago
    By what, magic? Most businesses sign long-term leases, often 10 years. Landlords are under no legal obligation to offer rent breaks while construction is underway. In fact, landlords would probably prefer the businesses go under so they can sign more lucrative deals post-subway construction -- see the current NYC store vacancy problem: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/change-math-keeping-nyc-storefronts-vacant-article-1.3932715 http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/change-math-keeping-nyc-s... You're assuming the area will become undesirable during construction and landlords will be forced to offer cheaper rates to lure tenants, but as we see above more likely they'd prefer to wait. Especially if a subway is about to be built there.
wott 9y ago
That's how it goes in other countries: if the construction work lasts longer than N days and affects a business, there is a compensation.

virgilp 9y ago

> in the city of Antwerp So, Belgium. > and now is projected to be closer to 3 years. Right. Belgium. :P

BerislavLopac 9y ago
You're being downvoted for profanity.
dang 9y ago
National slights aren't ok on HN, so please don't post them here. (Unless I've misinterpreted this comment and it means something I've missed completely, in which case sorry.)

jwilliams 9y ago

> You may be overestimating how easy cut and cover is. You're right. In fact, the Market Street passage of BART/Muni in San Francisco was a cut and cover. The closure of Market Street and delays in construction caused a lot of damage. Not the least of which the collapse of businesses[1] The Theaters went out of business, became porn cinemas and liquor stores. Much of what Civic is today was a result of that era. Not to say Cut and Cover was the 100% cause - but it was a major, major contributor. 1: https://hoodline.com/2016/07/in-their-words-the-convergent-histories-of-mid-market-and-civic-center https://hoodline.com/2016/07/in-their-words-the-convergent-h...

turbografx16 9y ago
Vancouver too. The Canada line expansion killed the vast majority of cambie's family owned / small businesses.
- fredophile 9y ago
  In contrast, it didn't kill the downtown businesses on Granville St. While any long term construction is probably going to negatively impact adjacent businesses that doesn't mean cut and cover is going to be the wrong decision to make in every case.
- bdamm 9y ago
  Having recently witnessed the boom in construction around the Canada Line stations, I'm not sure I agree. Many businesses on Cambie are doing very well, including some that hung on through the difficult time when the line was being built. Yes, some went out of business and that is sad, but many survived and fortunes seem to be up as a result.
  - kridsdale1 9y ago
    These are the vultures who got fat on the carcasses of those that didn’t survive.
jdblair 9y ago
Simultaneously, BART construction had a similar detrimental effect in downtown Oakland. Arguably, it is only now recovering.

thegayngler 9y ago

Isn't this temporary? The government should be concerned with the long term benefit to the city overall. The businesses that come in afterwards would likely benefit from subway access.

bronson 9y ago
Nope. The Bart trench appears to have turned Market St into a slum for generations (and this is despite all the municipal money being poured into transbay and other nearby sites). Well, it IS getting better, slowly. Maybe it will take 75 years to recover. How long-term are you thinking?
diab0lic 9y ago
Sure it is temporary and the businesses established afterwards would benefit greatly. However you're discouraging the establishment of new businesses in general if your policy includes not caring about the short term effects. What if that subway needs major maintenance in two years because of a mistake during construction? Why would I open a business on that street if the city has already shown it'll put me out of business to work on it?
ekianjo 9y ago
> The government should be concerned with the long term benefit to the city overall. The government should first be concerned by not crushing individuals' rights. That is what Rule of Law is for. Many societies have been utterly destroyed by putting "the general good" as a pretext for policies.
- rayiner 9y ago
  What “rights” do individual property owners have to public streets adjacent to their property?
  - fwn 9y ago
    Contingency. That's just a standard good governance principle.

anonu 9y ago

> The stores in the neighborhood are complaining that they'll probably go out of business before the works are done. Even with the tunnel boring they did on the Upper East Side of NYC for the 2nd Ave Subway, half the avenue was dedicated to construction entrances and other above-ground activities. Ultimately, may stores did go out of business. My point is, tunnel boring is also quite disruptive to what happens at the street level.

thetinguy 9y ago
The tunnels were built with TBMs. The actual stations were cut and cover.
- bobthepanda 9y ago
  You can't really build stations any other way. New York is way too expensive to buy property alongside the road as an access shaft, and in any case you need to be able to access both tracks from any given entrance. So either you have an island platform directly under the middle of the street or two side platforms on either side, both of which would need a connecting passageway the width of the street, from street to platform.

bobthepanda 9y ago

The problem is that the alternative is not necessarily better. The Second Avenue Subway stub took about a decade to build, and even though New York opted to use less disruptive surface methods, it ended up taking much longer. 3 years is better than 10.

foobarian 9y ago

This is now reminding me of this blog I found on HN yesterday: http://www.michaelnygard.com/blog/2015/07/the-fear-cycle/ http://www.michaelnygard.com/blog/2015/07/the-fear-cycle/ Once you have enough sewer/natural gas/electric/cable/telephone/fiber/water/who knows what else/ lines buried under the streets I can totally understand how nobody would want to touch that with a ten foot pole, just like legacy code :)

lathiat 9y ago

You probably also underestimate the amount of infrastructure under the street - not just power, water, sewerage but also network, fibre, etc. It is not remotely a small job to do such a thing. Not to say that it can't work out (or that some of those services don't have to be moved for tunnels) -- but cut and cover was a lot easier when we had less infrastructure. These problems are obviously 10x in such a dense city as NYC.

acjohnson55 9y ago
I've read before that in many places, they don't even know exactly what's below the street. These sorts of surprises are the bane of budgets and schedules for massive public works projects.

wklauss 9y ago

> You may be overestimating how easy cut and cover is. Not only that, it's not always feasible depending on the depth of the tunnel. The 2nd ave tunnel is 80 feet deep, and in a city with heavy underground infrastructure already in place.