5 ms·

Mobile Safari's support for modern web standards has made IE look good for some time now. It seems very clear that Apple doesn't want a good experience for web

Mobile Safari's support for modern web standards has made IE look good for some time now. It seems very clear that Apple doesn't want a good experience for web users on its devices. It's very frustrating, because we keep getting requests from users for features we're happy to look into or even already working on... but then discover the user has an iPhone, where the necessary web technologies are supported poorly if at all. Unfortunately, since Apple also won't let anyone else supply a real browser to run on its devices, there's also no meaningful competition to force them to do better. Maybe monopoly/anti-competition regulations should be adapted so the same principles apply to platforms in this sort of controlling position.

scarface74 9y ago
It isn't Apple that needs to do better for its users the developers need to invest the time and resources so that the users have the best experience. If you aren't willing to offer it, I'm sure someone will.
- Silhouette 9y ago
  If you aren't willing to offer it, I'm sure someone will. Given that some of the services my businesses offer are in various niche markets, and as far as we know they are totally unique and have no direct competition after several years on the market, apparently you are mistaken.
  - saagarjha 9y ago
    > as far as we know they are totally unique and have no direct competition after several years on the market That's what every company says right before they get their lunch eaten by a startup that comes out of nowhere ;)
    - Silhouette 9y ago
      No doubt, but I've done this a few times now with a few different businesses that are still going several years later, so I'll take my chances. :-) But seriously, there seems to be this almost universal assumption that if a market is worth serving in business, there will always be competition. That makes little sense to me, because if the modern online world has taught us anything, surely it is that our societies are incomprehensibly diverse and have countless niche interests and small communities within them. Those in turn create countless business opportunities, as long as you admit the possibility of smaller businesses that serve such markets in some useful and commercially viable way yet have no hope or ambition to become the next unicorn. The most profitable things I've worked on typically weren't in that category, but most of the best-received things I've ever worked on were. But sometimes that sort of market is only big enough for one player to really do well, or maybe there's only one player willing and able to invest in setting something up to cater to that particular market anyway.
matthewmacleod 9y ago
This is absolute nonsense. Most web technologies are supported by Safari.it has lagged behind other browsers for a while - not terribly so, but enough that it can be a little annoying at times. But the comparison with IE (or rather Edge now) is just wrong by an order of magnitude.
- Silhouette 9y ago
  This is absolute nonsense. Really? Let's look at some specifics around PWAs and media content. Mobile Safari has historically set relatively low and hard limits when storing data for offline use through the various relevant APIs. This is a much more significant limitation in a world of offline-friendly PWAs. HTML video elements have had so many problems it's hard to keep track, from relying on a broken plugin that didn't do things like sending cookies properly with requests, through to refusing to play videos in-page on iPhones. Mobile Safari has stuck with only playing H.264 videos even as every other major browser supported open standards. Obviously IE is no longer developed and doesn't support modern PWA APIs, but even IE had better support and more compatibility with some of the other modern web APIs than Mobile Safari.
- pier25 9y ago
  The problem is not only that it has lagged, but that it doesn't conform to all standards. Something that hit me hard a couple of years back is that in Safari for iOS you can't set the height of an <iframe>. Any browser back to IE4 can do this.
jbigelow76 9y ago
Unfortunately, since Apple also won't let anyone else supply a real browser to run on its devices, there's also no meaningful competition to force them to do better. Maybe monopoly/anti-competition regulations should be adapted so the same principles apply to platforms in this sort of controlling position. Apple only controls 12% of the smartphone market[1]. This is like asking that Porsche be regulated for not offering a color you want and they have a monopoly on selling Porsches. [1] https://qz.com/826672/android-goog-just-hit-a-record-88-market-share-of-all-smartphones/ https://qz.com/826672/android-goog-just-hit-a-record-88-mark...
- Silhouette 9y ago
  It seems more like saying Porsche can't dictate to garages that they can only supply Porsche spare parts and even then only if they become a Porsche dealership, despite someone else's competing part performing better.
  - jbigelow76 9y ago
    Say Porsche implemented something in the cars firmware that did just that. Porsche in the car market, like Apple in the smart phone market, isn't even remotely close to monopoly, so regulation would be extremely heavy handed and unwarranted. You as a developer could apply pressure by not supporting iOS. You said yourself in another response your app is very niche and has no competition, if you supported Android only your customer's would also have the opportunity to vote with their dollars and switch to Android. Inconvenient browser selection on one platform is a problem the market can fix, the government isn't needed.
iaml 9y ago
It's quite contrary, actually - apple provides good experience for its users - tightly controlled, secure sandboxed environments. The fact that you find it hard to develop apps for it is irrelevant for them.
- Silhouette 9y ago
  apple provides good experience for its users Clearly what some of us call a good experience differs from others. Customers who visit some of my sites on Android devices get useful facilities that customers who visit the same sites on iOS devices do not. This is a direct result of Apple's failure to support functionality in Mobile Safari that is available in other browsers and its policy of blocking any other browser from doing better on its platform. I don't really see how you can spin that as being a better experience for iOS users. The implicit assumption made by a few contributors in this discussion is that if PWAs don't work properly on iOS then developers will write native iOS apps instead, but often a more realistic alternative is that developers just downgrade their expectations on iOS and concentrate on providing more value on better platforms, with the iOS users losing out.

scarface74 9y ago

It isn't Apple that needs to do better for its users the developers need to invest the time and resources so that the users have the best experience. If you aren't willing to offer it, I'm sure someone will.

Silhouette 9y ago
If you aren't willing to offer it, I'm sure someone will. Given that some of the services my businesses offer are in various niche markets, and as far as we know they are totally unique and have no direct competition after several years on the market, apparently you are mistaken.
- saagarjha 9y ago
  > as far as we know they are totally unique and have no direct competition after several years on the market That's what every company says right before they get their lunch eaten by a startup that comes out of nowhere ;)
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    No doubt, but I've done this a few times now with a few different businesses that are still going several years later, so I'll take my chances. :-) But seriously, there seems to be this almost universal assumption that if a market is worth serving in business, there will always be competition. That makes little sense to me, because if the modern online world has taught us anything, surely it is that our societies are incomprehensibly diverse and have countless niche interests and small communities within them. Those in turn create countless business opportunities, as long as you admit the possibility of smaller businesses that serve such markets in some useful and commercially viable way yet have no hope or ambition to become the next unicorn. The most profitable things I've worked on typically weren't in that category, but most of the best-received things I've ever worked on were. But sometimes that sort of market is only big enough for one player to really do well, or maybe there's only one player willing and able to invest in setting something up to cater to that particular market anyway.

matthewmacleod 9y ago

This is absolute nonsense. Most web technologies are supported by Safari.it has lagged behind other browsers for a while - not terribly so, but enough that it can be a little annoying at times. But the comparison with IE (or rather Edge now) is just wrong by an order of magnitude.

Silhouette 9y ago
This is absolute nonsense. Really? Let's look at some specifics around PWAs and media content. Mobile Safari has historically set relatively low and hard limits when storing data for offline use through the various relevant APIs. This is a much more significant limitation in a world of offline-friendly PWAs. HTML video elements have had so many problems it's hard to keep track, from relying on a broken plugin that didn't do things like sending cookies properly with requests, through to refusing to play videos in-page on iPhones. Mobile Safari has stuck with only playing H.264 videos even as every other major browser supported open standards. Obviously IE is no longer developed and doesn't support modern PWA APIs, but even IE had better support and more compatibility with some of the other modern web APIs than Mobile Safari.
pier25 9y ago
The problem is not only that it has lagged, but that it doesn't conform to all standards. Something that hit me hard a couple of years back is that in Safari for iOS you can't set the height of an <iframe>. Any browser back to IE4 can do this.

jbigelow76 9y ago

Unfortunately, since Apple also won't let anyone else supply a real browser to run on its devices, there's also no meaningful competition to force them to do better. Maybe monopoly/anti-competition regulations should be adapted so the same principles apply to platforms in this sort of controlling position. Apple only controls 12% of the smartphone market[1]. This is like asking that Porsche be regulated for not offering a color you want and they have a monopoly on selling Porsches. [1] https://qz.com/826672/android-goog-just-hit-a-record-88-market-share-of-all-smartphones/ https://qz.com/826672/android-goog-just-hit-a-record-88-mark...

Silhouette 9y ago
It seems more like saying Porsche can't dictate to garages that they can only supply Porsche spare parts and even then only if they become a Porsche dealership, despite someone else's competing part performing better.
- jbigelow76 9y ago
  Say Porsche implemented something in the cars firmware that did just that. Porsche in the car market, like Apple in the smart phone market, isn't even remotely close to monopoly, so regulation would be extremely heavy handed and unwarranted. You as a developer could apply pressure by not supporting iOS. You said yourself in another response your app is very niche and has no competition, if you supported Android only your customer's would also have the opportunity to vote with their dollars and switch to Android. Inconvenient browser selection on one platform is a problem the market can fix, the government isn't needed.

iaml 9y ago

It's quite contrary, actually - apple provides good experience for its users - tightly controlled, secure sandboxed environments. The fact that you find it hard to develop apps for it is irrelevant for them.

Silhouette 9y ago
apple provides good experience for its users Clearly what some of us call a good experience differs from others. Customers who visit some of my sites on Android devices get useful facilities that customers who visit the same sites on iOS devices do not. This is a direct result of Apple's failure to support functionality in Mobile Safari that is available in other browsers and its policy of blocking any other browser from doing better on its platform. I don't really see how you can spin that as being a better experience for iOS users. The implicit assumption made by a few contributors in this discussion is that if PWAs don't work properly on iOS then developers will write native iOS apps instead, but often a more realistic alternative is that developers just downgrade their expectations on iOS and concentrate on providing more value on better platforms, with the iOS users losing out.