4 ms·

Controls: It doesn't force me to use native controls. :-) My web app today is still using the free and opened web, and all the goodness that comes with that, fo

by judah 9y ago

Controls: It doesn't force me to use native controls. :-) My web app today is still using the free and opened web, and all the goodness that comes with that, for UI and code. Requiring a Mac: Now you've met one. I built a halfway decent iOS app, and I don't want to spend $7000 on a Mac and its crappy dev tools and frameworks. I've poured nearly 7 years of work into user experience. I don't need to redo all that for Apple's closed, proprietary platform.

rolha-capoeira 9y ago
$7000? Your bias is showing. You can buy a Mac for <$1000 and it's perfectly capable of developing most apps.
- judah 9y ago
  Yes, I'm using hyperbole. :-) Even $1000 to build a free app is too much. (That said, going to Apple.com and clicking Mac shows me the base model for $4999.00 [0]) What happened to cross-platform apps? Why is it that Google and Microsoft are champions of the free and opened web, and even cross-platform dev tools for web development, while Apple is holding back progress? I think the reason is their business is jeopardized by the free and open web, just as Microsoft was in the late 1990s. [0}: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac-pro https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac-pro
  - waterside81 9y ago
    You linked to an iMac Pro, a high-end desktop, not a MacBook. Entry level MacBook is 1299
  - rolha-capoeira 9y ago
    First you said "$7000 on a Mac", then I said "You can buy a Mac for <$1000", then you said "Macbook shows me the base model for $4999.00" and you linked to an iMac Pro.
  - eropple 9y ago
    "Clicking Macbook shows me an iMac Pro" Yeah, no, it actually literally doesn't. There's no "Macbook" button on Apple's site. There's a Mac button. The Mac page then shows you a range of Macs, from the Macbook to the Mac mini, at the top of the screen. they are showing you the iMac Pro--their halo-effect product and newest release--on the Mac landing page; that's not the same thing and it is dishonest to assert that it is. Open standards are good. (The open web, whatever. I use React Native, because I like writing applications that feel responsive.) Open standard thumping as a proxy for weird platform fandoms is really not. Stop.
    - judah 9y ago
      Mac button, not Macbook, but you already knew that. Open standards are good. And we should want them to win, because it provides a safe haven from the abuses of big corporations. And I think right now, Apple is stepping into those waters: they are holding back web standards in order to keep promoting their business, which is reliant on native apps.
      - scarface74 9y ago
        Open standards aren't "good" if they provide an inferior user experience.
        realusername 9y ago
        They only provide inferior user experience because Safari mobile is crap.
        scarface74 9y ago
        Right, because computing is full of cross platform frameworks that you can write once and run anywhere and have as great of an experience as native apps - look how great Java and Swing were.
        realusername 9y ago
  - kbutler 9y ago
    To be fair, judah said "going to Apple.com and clicking Mac shows me the base model for $4999.00" Doing what he said takes me to: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac-pro On which the only computer I see without scrolling is the Mac Pro. My UI design friends constantly tell me anything "below the fold" may as well be invisible. Clicking the "Buy >" button takes me to 27-inch Retina 5K 5120-by-2880 P3 display $4,999.00 I know there are other options, but that's the default path for a naive user wanting to buy a mac from apple.com. I hope casual users don't end up following that path often!
- mgkimsal 9y ago
  <$1000 mac for even moderate development use cases? your bias is showing now.
  - rolha-capoeira 9y ago
    Yes, even for moderate development use cases. I've never had any problems.
  - jclardy 9y ago
    The $500 Mac mini can handle Xcode just fine, and that is a many year old machine that hasn't been updated. Maybe not if you've been spoiled on better hardware, but it performs adequately.
  - rsynnott 9y ago
    MacBook Air and Mini should be fine for most stuff, certainly for glorified web apps.
    - OtterCoder 9y ago
      Exactly. I write the main code on my Linux machine, then switch to the MacMini for testing and UI finalization.
  - cache_miss 9y ago
    I used my personal $500 mac mini for full-time desktop and webapp development when employed at Citrix. This excludes the cost of peripherals, of course.
  - evilduck 9y ago
    We're talking about a Cordova-wrapped SPA. You can develop those on Raspberry Pis if you had to. A 9 year old $250 MBP off ebay will absolutely suffice.
  - zghst 9y ago
    I bought a 2013 Macbook Pro for $700. Retina Display. Where there's a will, there's a way.
- waddlesworth 9y ago
  While possible, it's far from ideal. I had this experience, using an old MacBook to build an iPhone app. It repeatedly crashed because I had Atom and XCode open at the same time.
eropple 9y ago
You can buy a completely dev-usable Mac for under $1000. (My CI machine is a Mac mini I bought used for $350 and dropped an SSD and an extra stick of RAM into.) Its "crappy dev tools" are free. This is some silly stuff right here.
- limeblack 9y ago
  > My CI machine is a Mac mini I bought used for $350 and dropped an SSD and an extra stick of RAM into All but the vintage 2012 desktop Mac minis have been nuetered in the sense they are not upgradable.
  - eropple 9y ago
    "Neutered" is a weird term. The line is due for a refresh, I think it's got an i7-4578U Haswell in its top-end machine, but that's not "neutered". Yeah, they want you to pay for upgrades themselves and that sucks, but, whatever--my 2012 one has an Ivy Bridge i7 in it and it is still plenty fast for build tasks in my (fairly price-conscious) environment. If I needed a beefier machine, I would be making much more money and justifying its purchase.
    - abrowne 9y ago
      I'm guessing they mean the lack of memory slots in the current model.
    - orangecat 9y ago
      my 2012 one has an Ivy Bridge i7 in it and it is still plenty fast for build tasks in my (fairly price-conscious) environment. That's the point: the current mini is worse than what you could get in 2012, due to removing the quad core option and upgradeable memory.
      - eropple 9y ago
        OK, so buy one used. It's just not a big deal for a home developer.
briandear 9y ago
> I've poured nearly 7 years of work into user experience. I don't need to redo all that for Apple's closed, proprietary platform. So don’t. I also don’t have to use your app.
valuearb 9y ago
You've poured nearly 7 years of work into user experience, and you don't appreciate the benefits of native UX, especially on iOS? My company builds our app in React, with the performance and UI critical functions in Java (Android) and Swift (iOS). I've spent my career learning and applying one key rule about UX, little things can make huge differences in how enjoyable and productive the user experience is.

by judah 9y ago

rolha-capoeira 9y ago

$7000? Your bias is showing. You can buy a Mac for <$1000 and it's perfectly capable of developing most apps.

judah 9y ago
Yes, I'm using hyperbole. :-) Even $1000 to build a free app is too much. (That said, going to Apple.com and clicking Mac shows me the base model for $4999.00 [0]) What happened to cross-platform apps? Why is it that Google and Microsoft are champions of the free and opened web, and even cross-platform dev tools for web development, while Apple is holding back progress? I think the reason is their business is jeopardized by the free and open web, just as Microsoft was in the late 1990s. [0}: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac-pro https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac-pro
- waterside81 9y ago
  You linked to an iMac Pro, a high-end desktop, not a MacBook. Entry level MacBook is 1299
- rolha-capoeira 9y ago
  First you said "$7000 on a Mac", then I said "You can buy a Mac for <$1000", then you said "Macbook shows me the base model for $4999.00" and you linked to an iMac Pro.
- eropple 9y ago
  "Clicking Macbook shows me an iMac Pro" Yeah, no, it actually literally doesn't. There's no "Macbook" button on Apple's site. There's a Mac button. The Mac page then shows you a range of Macs, from the Macbook to the Mac mini, at the top of the screen. they are showing you the iMac Pro--their halo-effect product and newest release--on the Mac landing page; that's not the same thing and it is dishonest to assert that it is. Open standards are good. (The open web, whatever. I use React Native, because I like writing applications that feel responsive.) Open standard thumping as a proxy for weird platform fandoms is really not. Stop.
  - judah 9y ago
    Mac button, not Macbook, but you already knew that. Open standards are good. And we should want them to win, because it provides a safe haven from the abuses of big corporations. And I think right now, Apple is stepping into those waters: they are holding back web standards in order to keep promoting their business, which is reliant on native apps.
    - scarface74 9y ago
      Open standards aren't "good" if they provide an inferior user experience.
      - realusername 9y ago
        They only provide inferior user experience because Safari mobile is crap.
        scarface74 9y ago
        Right, because computing is full of cross platform frameworks that you can write once and run anywhere and have as great of an experience as native apps - look how great Java and Swing were.
        realusername 9y ago
- kbutler 9y ago
  To be fair, judah said "going to Apple.com and clicking Mac shows me the base model for $4999.00" Doing what he said takes me to: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac-pro On which the only computer I see without scrolling is the Mac Pro. My UI design friends constantly tell me anything "below the fold" may as well be invisible. Clicking the "Buy >" button takes me to 27-inch Retina 5K 5120-by-2880 P3 display $4,999.00 I know there are other options, but that's the default path for a naive user wanting to buy a mac from apple.com. I hope casual users don't end up following that path often!
mgkimsal 9y ago
<$1000 mac for even moderate development use cases? your bias is showing now.
- rolha-capoeira 9y ago
  Yes, even for moderate development use cases. I've never had any problems.
- jclardy 9y ago
  The $500 Mac mini can handle Xcode just fine, and that is a many year old machine that hasn't been updated. Maybe not if you've been spoiled on better hardware, but it performs adequately.
- rsynnott 9y ago
  MacBook Air and Mini should be fine for most stuff, certainly for glorified web apps.
  - OtterCoder 9y ago
    Exactly. I write the main code on my Linux machine, then switch to the MacMini for testing and UI finalization.
- cache_miss 9y ago
  I used my personal $500 mac mini for full-time desktop and webapp development when employed at Citrix. This excludes the cost of peripherals, of course.
- evilduck 9y ago
  We're talking about a Cordova-wrapped SPA. You can develop those on Raspberry Pis if you had to. A 9 year old $250 MBP off ebay will absolutely suffice.
- zghst 9y ago
  I bought a 2013 Macbook Pro for $700. Retina Display. Where there's a will, there's a way.
waddlesworth 9y ago
While possible, it's far from ideal. I had this experience, using an old MacBook to build an iPhone app. It repeatedly crashed because I had Atom and XCode open at the same time.

eropple 9y ago

You can buy a completely dev-usable Mac for under $1000. (My CI machine is a Mac mini I bought used for $350 and dropped an SSD and an extra stick of RAM into.) Its "crappy dev tools" are free. This is some silly stuff right here.

limeblack 9y ago
> My CI machine is a Mac mini I bought used for $350 and dropped an SSD and an extra stick of RAM into All but the vintage 2012 desktop Mac minis have been nuetered in the sense they are not upgradable.
- eropple 9y ago
  "Neutered" is a weird term. The line is due for a refresh, I think it's got an i7-4578U Haswell in its top-end machine, but that's not "neutered". Yeah, they want you to pay for upgrades themselves and that sucks, but, whatever--my 2012 one has an Ivy Bridge i7 in it and it is still plenty fast for build tasks in my (fairly price-conscious) environment. If I needed a beefier machine, I would be making much more money and justifying its purchase.
  - abrowne 9y ago
    I'm guessing they mean the lack of memory slots in the current model.
  - orangecat 9y ago
    my 2012 one has an Ivy Bridge i7 in it and it is still plenty fast for build tasks in my (fairly price-conscious) environment. That's the point: the current mini is worse than what you could get in 2012, due to removing the quad core option and upgradeable memory.
    - eropple 9y ago
      OK, so buy one used. It's just not a big deal for a home developer.

briandear 9y ago

> I've poured nearly 7 years of work into user experience. I don't need to redo all that for Apple's closed, proprietary platform. So don’t. I also don’t have to use your app.

valuearb 9y ago

You've poured nearly 7 years of work into user experience, and you don't appreciate the benefits of native UX, especially on iOS? My company builds our app in React, with the performance and UI critical functions in Java (Android) and Swift (iOS). I've spent my career learning and applying one key rule about UX, little things can make huge differences in how enjoyable and productive the user experience is.